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Priestley

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:24 pm


ryuu_chan
Priestley
It reminds me of Donnie Darko in a way. It could be that these universes/realities made by analogues just increase in entropy by increasing magnitudes as time goes by.

Probably not a hypothesis supported by scientific fact, but the idea is what came to mind just now.

Firstly: Reading the above sentence at 3 am made my brain hurt for a second.

Yup, I imagine it would. lol It's the principle that was in the book featured in the film. I would go on to explain but I would spoil the film! I'll take it to PMs. 3nodding

ryuu_chan
Secondly: Did it take anyone else like three viewings of Donnie Darko for it to make sense in any way?

It took me a couple of viewings. Whenever it's on TV again, I still notice things I'd forgotten or hadn't realised the first few times. It's a cool film like that. Frank freaks me out, though. eek

ryuu_chan
And thirdly: Did anyone else read Timeline by Michael Chrichton? Multiple dimensions equals time travel. Brilliant. xd

*adds another entry in his 'Books to Read' list* crying
PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 10:14 pm


Priestley

ryuu_chan
And thirdly: Did anyone else read Timeline by Michael Chrichton? Multiple dimensions equals time travel. Brilliant. xd

*adds another entry in his 'Books to Read' list* crying

When you read through it, it's an amazing thing. Somehow all the dimensions are tied into each other, and what's happening in one influences another at the same time that other one is influencing the first and all the rest. Time travel is making a duplicate of yourself with all your memories and everything, but still not quite YOU and heading off to a certain point in one of these alternate dimensions. It's an amazing read, and fun too if you're into medieval times/history.

Just don't see the movie. As movies go, it was subpar. As a movie based off a great book, my eyes bled. crying

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mazuac

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:42 pm


Quote:
Time is a human concept to explain what happens when something moves from one place to another. Technically, time doesn't exist either- just movement (the earth moving around the sun, etc.).
*Note* This is Fushigi na Butterfly's Post from the First Page~!*

I disagree. Time is one of the major dimensions. (Along with Space, etc.)

If Time is merely a human concept, then why does Time move slower among large bodies of mass that contain great amounts of gravity? (Example - Stars.) Because stars make such an indent on the area of space, time itself is bent around the star. Time exists, yet the word "time" is a human concept. Time exists, seeing as it can be bent and altered along with other objects~

Along with that, if time is merely a human thing, how can God be outside of time?

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:41 am


mazuac
Quote:
Time is a human concept to explain what happens when something moves from one place to another. Technically, time doesn't exist either- just movement (the earth moving around the sun, etc.).
*Note* This is Fushigi na Butterfly's Post from the First Page~!*

I disagree. Time is one of the major dimensions. (Along with Space, etc.)

If Time is merely a human concept, then why does Time move slower among large bodies of mass that contain great amounts of gravity? (Example - Stars.) Because stars make such an indent on the area of space, time itself is bent around the star. Time exists, yet the word "time" is a human concept. Time exists, seeing as it can be bent and altered along with other objects~


You just agreed with me. "Time" doesn't move slower- the larger the mass of the thing (say a planet), the slower it's going to move. That's why years on Jupiter are so much longer than years on earth. Not because time is actually moving slower; the planet is moving more slowly around the sun (it's also way further away- the rotation of the planet actually has nothing to do with, I don't think- unless the rotation of a planet influences the length of time it takes to completely orbit the sun; seeing as how I'm neither an expert in physics or astronomy, I have no idea).

I have no idea what all this business with a "dent" has to do with anything. What exactly does "time" look like, if it's been so clearly observed being bent around objects?


mazuac
Along with that, if time is merely a human thing, how can God be outside of time?


Because "time" is a human concept, God can exist outside of it. It doesn't matter either way, because God can do anything (and nothing, or both, at the same time). But time doesn't matter to God. He is outside of it. Things like the movement of the earth around the sun don't matter to Him. Our aging has nothing to do with "time." It has to do with the cessation of the division of our cells, and that's movement. "Time" only exists so long as their is something to measure its passing. Which is a really hard concept to wrap your head around, but yeah. God exists outside of all of that.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:23 pm


Fushigi na Butterfly
mazuac
Quote:
Time is a human concept to explain what happens when something moves from one place to another. Technically, time doesn't exist either- just movement (the earth moving around the sun, etc.).
*Note* This is Fushigi na Butterfly's Post from the First Page~!*

I disagree. Time is one of the major dimensions. (Along with Space, etc.)

If Time is merely a human concept, then why does Time move slower among large bodies of mass that contain great amounts of gravity? (Example - Stars.) Because stars make such an indent on the area of space, time itself is bent around the star. Time exists, yet the word "time" is a human concept. Time exists, seeing as it can be bent and altered along with other objects~


You just agreed with me. "Time" doesn't move slower- the larger the mass of the thing (say a planet), the slower it's going to move. That's why years on Jupiter are so much longer than years on earth. Not because time is actually moving slower; the planet is moving more slowly around the sun (it's also way further away- the rotation of the planet actually has nothing to do with, I don't think- unless the rotation of a planet influences the length of time it takes to completely orbit the sun; seeing as how I'm neither an expert in physics or astronomy, I have no idea).

I have no idea what all this business with a "dent" has to do with anything. What exactly does "time" look like, if it's been so clearly observed being bent around objects?


Time is not just a human concept. It is a physical aspect of the universe. It is be slowed (or bent). The two primary ways for time to be slowed is by high speeds or gravity. It can get complicated rather quickly, but the main point is time does exist.

This can be seen in a number of ways, and without understanding this GPS systems and satellite communication would not work.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:35 pm


Lethkhar
Fushigi na Butterfly
Lethkhar
ryuu_chan
Captain_Theoretical
I got two words for you: parallel universes.

Yeah. Think about that. stare

But how many? I mean, are we talking just one or two, or is it the theory that everything every person does creates another universe for the thing they didn't do? Because then that brings up the question that if God knows all, then does he know which action we were going to take? And is he just in the one continuous universe, or in them all? Which one is the continuous universe? And which one are we in now?

Yeah, I'm WAY too intellectual for my own good. Here's a strange thought. Maybe God lives in a black hole. Maybe the reason nothing can get back out is because nothing is MEANT to. They're portals to the spiritual realms. Discussion on my strange ideals welcome. xd

Nonsense. You can NEVER be too intellectual.

Well, you can theoretically create a black hole. I mean, it's really just something so massive that its force of gravity is so strong light can't escape from it, such as certain collapsed stars. So if your theory's correct, we could create a portal to the spirit world. That's pretty kick-a**. xd


I was watching something on the History Channel (I think it was the History Channel) and they were talking about black holes, and that all the things necessary to create one existed on earth, and that a black hole existing deep in the earth's mantle could be a good explanation for the Bermuda Triangle. All of the weird things that happen are the same things that happen when nearing a black hole.

...I'm sorry, but that's kind of ridiculous.

Black Holes are millions of times bigger than the earth. Even if a black hole was small enough to be at the center of the earth, the earth would be sucked into a black hole.


This is quite wrong. Black holes can be practically any size, including as small as a pinhead. Smaller black holes simply decay faster than larger ones, and it takes different situations for them to form.

The idea of a black hole being in the center of the planet is ridiculous, just not because of the possible sizes of black holes.

zz1000zz
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zz1000zz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:46 pm


ryuu_chan
You know what blows my mind though? Science really has absolutely no idea what's past the surface layer of the earth. They assume that because there's lava coming from the ground, it's everywhere. Couldn't it just be isolated patches, and all the pressure from everything else is shoving all this liquid fire upward? *ponderings* So, on a really out-there theory, as humans don't know what IS in the center of the earth, do you think that a spiritual realm could be contained there?


Actually, scientists have a pretty good idea of what is in the center of the Earth. It is pretty much just solid iron. Outside that (outer core) is liquid iron, with some sulfur. Outside that (the mantle) it gets far more mixed, with about five or six main components.

There is quite a bit that is not known about the Earth, but scientists have a pretty good grasp on the generalities. While there is still much to be learned about the Earth, we certainly do not have, "no idea what's past the surface layer."
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:41 pm


zz1000zz
Fushigi na Butterfly
mazuac
Quote:
Time is a human concept to explain what happens when something moves from one place to another. Technically, time doesn't exist either- just movement (the earth moving around the sun, etc.).
*Note* This is Fushigi na Butterfly's Post from the First Page~!*

I disagree. Time is one of the major dimensions. (Along with Space, etc.)

If Time is merely a human concept, then why does Time move slower among large bodies of mass that contain great amounts of gravity? (Example - Stars.) Because stars make such an indent on the area of space, time itself is bent around the star. Time exists, yet the word "time" is a human concept. Time exists, seeing as it can be bent and altered along with other objects~


You just agreed with me. "Time" doesn't move slower- the larger the mass of the thing (say a planet), the slower it's going to move. That's why years on Jupiter are so much longer than years on earth. Not because time is actually moving slower; the planet is moving more slowly around the sun (it's also way further away- the rotation of the planet actually has nothing to do with, I don't think- unless the rotation of a planet influences the length of time it takes to completely orbit the sun; seeing as how I'm neither an expert in physics or astronomy, I have no idea).

I have no idea what all this business with a "dent" has to do with anything. What exactly does "time" look like, if it's been so clearly observed being bent around objects?


Time is not just a human concept. It is a physical aspect of the universe. It is be slowed (or bent). The two primary ways for time to be slowed is by high speeds or gravity. It can get complicated rather quickly, but the main point is time does exist.

This can be seen in a number of ways, and without understanding this GPS systems and satellite communication would not work.


Is there a really simple way to explain it? Cuz ... I'm kinda not convinced. It's nothing personal, I just don't see how something like "time" could exist, since "movement" seems to explain it just fine. confused

Fushigi na Butterfly

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:59 am


zz1000zz
Actually, scientists have a pretty good idea of what is in the center of the Earth. It is pretty much just solid iron. Outside that (outer core) is liquid iron, with some sulfur. Outside that (the mantle) it gets far more mixed, with about five or six main components.

There is quite a bit that is not known about the Earth, but scientists have a pretty good grasp on the generalities. While there is still much to be learned about the Earth, we certainly do not have, "no idea what's past the surface layer."

Well, that's what they consider to be most LOGICAL, but then again, there are a lot of things in the universe right now that don't seem that logical at all. Like how science has told us there must be SOMETHING everywhere, and that giant hole of NOHTHING out there. But as no one's ever been to the center of the earth, there's no way to really tell. I mean, the mantle might be solid. The center of the earth might be Twinkie's cream pudding. They can guess, and they can think their guesses make sense, but all in all it's really just shots in the dark.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:33 pm


ryuu_chan
zz1000zz
Actually, scientists have a pretty good idea of what is in the center of the Earth. It is pretty much just solid iron. Outside that (outer core) is liquid iron, with some sulfur. Outside that (the mantle) it gets far more mixed, with about five or six main components.

There is quite a bit that is not known about the Earth, but scientists have a pretty good grasp on the generalities. While there is still much to be learned about the Earth, we certainly do not have, "no idea what's past the surface layer."

Well, that's what they consider to be most LOGICAL, but then again, there are a lot of things in the universe right now that don't seem that logical at all. Like how science has told us there must be SOMETHING everywhere, and that giant hole of NOHTHING out there.


Astrophysics is not a field I spend a lot of time on, so I had not heard of this. I just now looked in the other topic, but the link in it is dead. I did a few searches on the internet, and it is rather interesting.

To be clear, science never said "there must be SOMETHING everywhere." Voids similar to the one you brought up have been known to exist for quite some time (there is even one not too far from Earth). The only difference here is size. To be sure, nobody expected to find a void as large as this one; however, such a void would not have been considered impossible. This "hole" does not violate any rules of science, it just presents something unexpected.

For what it is worth, it is not known whether this void is actually devoid of matter. It is quite possible future examination will find stars and the like, just in far smaller numbers than normal.

ryuu_chan
But as no one's ever been to the center of the earth, there's no way to really tell. I mean, the mantle might be solid. The center of the earth might be Twinkie's cream pudding. They can guess, and they can think their guesses make sense, but all in all it's really just shots in the dark.


Nobody will ever be to the "center of the Earth," as it is solid iron. There is no doubt of this* as it is obvious through a number of lines of evidence. Electromagnetism happens to be one of the most compelling, as there is no other (scientific) explanation for it.

We know the mantle is solid (this is true, though it hardly does justice) through dozens of lines of evidence. Perhaps the most compelling piece of evidence of this is the ability to see the mantle, as it is exposed and visible at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean near the Caribbean Sea.

Seriously, do you have any specific problems with the science behind these things? If so, I would be glad to answer your questions, or at least provide resources that can do so. As it is, all you are doing is blindly dismissing sound science, without providing any reason.

*The inner core quite possibly contains traces of elements other than iron. These traces would be extremely small and largely immaterial.

zz1000zz
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zz1000zz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:11 pm


Fushigi na Butterfly
zz1000zz
Fushigi na Butterfly
mazuac
Quote:
Time is a human concept to explain what happens when something moves from one place to another. Technically, time doesn't exist either- just movement (the earth moving around the sun, etc.).
*Note* This is Fushigi na Butterfly's Post from the First Page~!*

I disagree. Time is one of the major dimensions. (Along with Space, etc.)

If Time is merely a human concept, then why does Time move slower among large bodies of mass that contain great amounts of gravity? (Example - Stars.) Because stars make such an indent on the area of space, time itself is bent around the star. Time exists, yet the word "time" is a human concept. Time exists, seeing as it can be bent and altered along with other objects~


You just agreed with me. "Time" doesn't move slower- the larger the mass of the thing (say a planet), the slower it's going to move. That's why years on Jupiter are so much longer than years on earth. Not because time is actually moving slower; the planet is moving more slowly around the sun (it's also way further away- the rotation of the planet actually has nothing to do with, I don't think- unless the rotation of a planet influences the length of time it takes to completely orbit the sun; seeing as how I'm neither an expert in physics or astronomy, I have no idea).

I have no idea what all this business with a "dent" has to do with anything. What exactly does "time" look like, if it's been so clearly observed being bent around objects?


Time is not just a human concept. It is a physical aspect of the universe. It is be slowed (or bent). The two primary ways for time to be slowed is by high speeds or gravity. It can get complicated rather quickly, but the main point is time does exist.

This can be seen in a number of ways, and without understanding this GPS systems and satellite communication would not work.


Is there a really simple way to explain it? Cuz ... I'm kinda not convinced. It's nothing personal, I just don't see how something like "time" could exist, since "movement" seems to explain it just fine. confused


I doubt any explanation I could provide would do the subject justice. It is an intricate subject, and I am not that good at making things simple. The best approach I can think of is to provide examples of time being affected by speed/gravity.

A common experiment is to take two synchronized atomic clocks and place them at different elevations. We know the Earth is constantly rotating. With any rotational object, things located further from the center travel faster than things nearer to the center. This means the atomic clock placed at a higher elevation will travel faster than the atomic clock placed at a lower elevation. After a period of time, you can compare the two clocks, and you will see a discrepancy. The clock that had been placed at a higher elevation will show less time has passed than the clock that had been placed at a lower elevation. This is because time slows as objects move faster.

Time being affected by gravity is far harder to demonstrate. There are unfortunately no simple experiments like the former example. Instead, consider GPS systems. These are systems which use satellites to determine exact locations on Earth. When designing these systems, the makers have to adjust for gravity's affect on time. The reason for this is satellites are located quite a distance above the Earth. Because they are farther from Earth, they are less affected by Earth's gravity. Since gravity exerts less force on them, time moves slightly faster relative to a person on Earth. Signals sent between Earth and satellites experience a certain amount of "drift" due to this difference. The need to adjust for this has been well known the entire time satellites have been used.

One thing that is extremely important to point out here is time is only relatively moving faster or slower. In the example of the atomic clocks, neither clock would notice the time dilation. Indeed, to each clock time was completely normal. It is only when comparing two different reference frames the affect can be observed (which is part of why it is so hard to grasp). As for why time is affected this way, it is largely one of those things of, "That's the way it works." There are possible explanations, often combining time and space into a single thing, called spacetime. What is important is we know how it works, even if we do not necessarily know why it works.

I am not sure how clear my explanation was, so feel free to ask questions. The examples I provided are just a couple of hundreds that could be provided. For example, most of what is known in astrophysics depends upon time being real to make sense.

Edit: Another approach to explaining why gravity must affect time is if it did not, it would be possible to create a perpetual motion machine.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:10 pm


Hmm. But if you see time like God does, I'm writing this at the same time some caveman is warming his hands by a fire for the first time, the Romans are invading Athens, my unborn baby nephew is having his first kiss, and the last battle on earth is being fought, all RIGHT NOW, then why SHOULDN'T time be a human concept? If we can get above and beyond it, warp and bend it, then we're on our way to seeing the universe the way a deity does. We're on our way to time travel. I mean, the human brain just can't comprehend all that at once, so we're put into a fluid scale called minutes and hours and past, present and future. We're constricted by how little our neural pathways can handle.

Theoretically, of course. mrgreen

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Fushigi na Butterfly

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:41 pm


zz1000zz
Fushigi na Butterfly
zz1000zz
Fushigi na Butterfly
mazuac
Quote:
Time is a human concept to explain what happens when something moves from one place to another. Technically, time doesn't exist either- just movement (the earth moving around the sun, etc.).
*Note* This is Fushigi na Butterfly's Post from the First Page~!*

I disagree. Time is one of the major dimensions. (Along with Space, etc.)

If Time is merely a human concept, then why does Time move slower among large bodies of mass that contain great amounts of gravity? (Example - Stars.) Because stars make such an indent on the area of space, time itself is bent around the star. Time exists, yet the word "time" is a human concept. Time exists, seeing as it can be bent and altered along with other objects~


You just agreed with me. "Time" doesn't move slower- the larger the mass of the thing (say a planet), the slower it's going to move. That's why years on Jupiter are so much longer than years on earth. Not because time is actually moving slower; the planet is moving more slowly around the sun (it's also way further away- the rotation of the planet actually has nothing to do with, I don't think- unless the rotation of a planet influences the length of time it takes to completely orbit the sun; seeing as how I'm neither an expert in physics or astronomy, I have no idea).

I have no idea what all this business with a "dent" has to do with anything. What exactly does "time" look like, if it's been so clearly observed being bent around objects?


Time is not just a human concept. It is a physical aspect of the universe. It is be slowed (or bent). The two primary ways for time to be slowed is by high speeds or gravity. It can get complicated rather quickly, but the main point is time does exist.

This can be seen in a number of ways, and without understanding this GPS systems and satellite communication would not work.


Is there a really simple way to explain it? Cuz ... I'm kinda not convinced. It's nothing personal, I just don't see how something like "time" could exist, since "movement" seems to explain it just fine. confused


I doubt any explanation I could provide would do the subject justice. It is an intricate subject, and I am not that good at making things simple. The best approach I can think of is to provide examples of time being affected by speed/gravity.

A common experiment is to take two synchronized atomic clocks and place them at different elevations. We know the Earth is constantly rotating. With any rotational object, things located further from the center travel faster than things nearer to the center. This means the atomic clock placed at a higher elevation will travel faster than the atomic clock placed at a lower elevation. After a period of time, you can compare the two clocks, and you will see a discrepancy. The clock that had been placed at a higher elevation will show less time has passed than the clock that had been placed at a lower elevation. This is because time slows as objects move faster.

Time being affected by gravity is far harder to demonstrate. There are unfortunately no simple experiments like the former example. Instead, consider GPS systems. These are systems which use satellites to determine exact locations on Earth. When designing these systems, the makers have to adjust for gravity's affect on time. The reason for this is satellites are located quite a distance above the Earth. Because they are farther from Earth, they are less affected by Earth's gravity. Since gravity exerts less force on them, time moves slightly faster relative to a person on Earth. Signals sent between Earth and satellites experience a certain amount of "drift" due to this difference. The need to adjust for this has been well known the entire time satellites have been used.

One thing that is extremely important to point out here is time is only relatively moving faster or slower. In the example of the atomic clocks, neither clock would notice the time dilation. Indeed, to each clock time was completely normal. It is only when comparing two different reference frames the affect can be observed (which is part of why it is so hard to grasp). As for why time is affected this way, it is largely one of those things of, "That's the way it works." There are possible explanations, often combining time and space into a single thing, called spacetime. What is important is we know how it works, even if we do not necessarily know why it works.

I am not sure how clear my explanation was, so feel free to ask questions. The examples I provided are just a couple of hundreds that could be provided. For example, most of what is known in astrophysics depends upon time being real to make sense.

Edit: Another approach to explaining why gravity must affect time is if it did not, it would be possible to create a perpetual motion machine.


Okay, I get how it can be demonstrated, but I guess this just one of those things that I don't get. Cuz I'm still thinking I disagree with it (mostly because I don't understand it). I'm just ... I don't even know. I think my brain might melt if I try to think about it. sweatdrop Thanks for trying to explain it to me though. 3nodding
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:38 pm


Fushigi na Butterfly
Okay, I get how it can be demonstrated, but I guess this just one of those things that I don't get. Cuz I'm still thinking I disagree with it (mostly because I don't understand it). I'm just ... I don't even know. I think my brain might melt if I try to think about it. sweatdrop Thanks for trying to explain it to me though. 3nodding


Don't feel bad about having trouble accepting it. For the most part, it will have no influence on your life. It is important on a scientific level, but on a day-to-day basis it is largely immaterial. We can know it is true because of science, but accepting it on a conscious level is not easy.

It really doesn't help that there is no real reason "why" things are this way. Science can only tell us how these things work, it cannot say why they are that way.

zz1000zz
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Fushigi na Butterfly

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:56 pm


Haha, yeah, understanding they why probably would have been helpful. Oh well. 3nodding
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