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 Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:03 pm
Toga! Toga! My Conscience kp606 Talon-chan kp606 My opinion on this is slowly changing, unfortunately. I'd give reasoning but i'd be insulting about ninety-five percent of people on the planet in the process so i'll bite my tongue. You can't just say that! I am legitimately curious - what opinion can be so loathed? I would wager a guess and say "no abortions for any reason even if the woman will die." Why, before, did you hold the belief you used to hold? Why, now, has that changed? As for my personal opinion, it is a matter of rights. You have a right to use lethal force in self defense, even when you are facing a non-life threatening harm, but only where no other alternatives exist. You may kill a rapist who only wishes you bodily ills, or a torturer who only wishes you bodily ills, a mentally ill rapist who knows not what he does (and as such has no mal intent)... all of them for committing far lesser crimes than an unwanted fetus. 10 minutes or 10 hours is nothing compared to nearly 10 months of invasion. The fetus, even if it were a perfectly innocent person with no intentions, still has no right to use your body (while causing extreme changes) any more than anyone else has such a right. As such you may use lethal force to defend yourself. Until a method of removal exists where the fetus will survive, lethal force may be employed. Well... I just am beginning to think different about the issues at hand, and the logic behind either side. I've always said that you lose no matter what side you are on but now I'm finally beginning to realize it and accept it for some very good reasons. I don't see pro-life as being applicable in many situations (most perhaps? I couldn't say for sure) but at the same time, to allow for abortion isn't something I will openly do. Speaking philosophically, it is a matter of picking your poison... Which brings me to my next point on Pro-choice... "Well you have Diabetes, type 1." "Okay what are my options?" Well, you really don't have options. You must inject or inhale insulin everyday, for as long as you live and attempt to balance out your insulin levels, or, you die (or live a very restricted life). I think being pro-choice is as much saying "If I have a failing kidney, i'm pro removing it to find a new one." I think, however, if we could avoid the situation entirely, we would. What has bothered, too, about abortion is that people will talk about volitive choice and having the freedom to live your life the way you want too. They will say well you never have to choose abortion, you can live your life and never have to deal with the issue and that's what makes someone pro-life. However, if they are living in a people-controlled country, such as a democracy or republic, isn't that just countering itself? Control yourself, but certainly don't control the higher body above you, because, we're telling you, in essence, controlling, we don't want that. I don't know. I really don't. I also think the issue has become far to hard to debate anymore because you can approach it from so many vantage points and if you make a statement from one vantage point, an opponent could say something from another, and even though it looks like they have countered you, they started talking about geometry when you were discussing biology (as an example). The point I was talking about originally was I was going to list a bunch of stereotypes, which at the time, I was finding oddly, and depressingly, true. sweatdrop I've changed slightly as well. One of the issues that is hard for me to support while being pro-life is stem cell research. I see all the promising advancements in fetal stem cells. Being pro-life makes me a hypocrite for supporting fetal stem cell research gonk What about cord blood banking? I've heard of that yet don't really know much about it. From what I understand, when the baby is born the parents have the option to have their newborn's cord blood collected and stored for future use. People have claimed that it has treated/cured their children of sickle cell or other diseases. Either way, isn't a fetus way too developed for its cells to have any use in stem cell research? I fully support cord blood stem cell donations. I can't believe I made that mistake. I meant embryonic stem cells. Actually, I just found a news article on embryonic stem cell lines that states there is an method to extract stem cells without damaging the embryo! This is great news 3nodding http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nature05142.htmlI've never heard of that before.
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:06 pm
In essence, by your definition, I am a Pro-limited choice whee More extensively, Pro-limited choice only in the case of the mothers life being in danger.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:21 am
Grrr Toga made this topic before me!(Mainly because she arrived here before myself but still *sniffles*)
Anywho I am pro choice, mainly beause I feel it is the woman's righ to terminate the pregnancy when she pleases. It is her body and it is also she who is carrying the child. Who are we to say no that she cannot have an abortion. Furthermore, I am also curious as to the reason for pro life besides the potential life argument, and many othes that in the end can be turned against themslves and debunked without much work.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:30 am
Master_SL Grrr Toga made this topic before me!(Mainly because she arrived here before myself but still *sniffles*) Anywho I am pro choice, mainly beause I feel it is the woman's righ to terminate the pregnancy when she pleases. It is her body and it is also she who is carrying the child. Who are we to say no that she cannot have an abortion. Furthermore, I am also curious as to the reason for pro life besides the potential life argument, and many othes that in the end can be turned against themslves and debunked without much work. That means you believe even the day before the unborn's birth the women should be allowed to abort? You said she has the right to terminate the pregnacy when she pleases. I don't follow... potential life? The unborn has life. If you are wondering what the true pro-life arugment is, I am making an update to my current pro-life thread in the Extended Discussion. I should be done within a week or so.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:45 am
My Conscience Master_SL Grrr Toga made this topic before me!(Mainly because she arrived here before myself but still *sniffles*) Anywho I am pro choice, mainly beause I feel it is the woman's righ to terminate the pregnancy when she pleases. It is her body and it is also she who is carrying the child. Who are we to say no that she cannot have an abortion. Furthermore, I am also curious as to the reason for pro life besides the potential life argument, and many othes that in the end can be turned against themslves and debunked without much work. That means you believe even the day before the unborn's birth the women should be allowed to abort? You said she has the right to terminate the pregnacy when she pleases. I don't follow... potential life? The unborn has life. If you are wondering what the true pro-life arugment is, I am making an update to my current pro-life thread in the Extended Discussion. I should be done within a week or so. Does that update includes taking away the "Irrefutable" part? wink
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:14 am
RMarques My Conscience Master_SL Grrr Toga made this topic before me!(Mainly because she arrived here before myself but still *sniffles*) Anywho I am pro choice, mainly beause I feel it is the woman's righ to terminate the pregnancy when she pleases. It is her body and it is also she who is carrying the child. Who are we to say no that she cannot have an abortion. Furthermore, I am also curious as to the reason for pro life besides the potential life argument, and many othes that in the end can be turned against themslves and debunked without much work. That means you believe even the day before the unborn's birth the women should be allowed to abort? You said she has the right to terminate the pregnacy when she pleases. I don't follow... potential life? The unborn has life. If you are wondering what the true pro-life arugment is, I am making an update to my current pro-life thread in the Extended Discussion. I should be done within a week or so. Does that update includes taking away the "Irrefutable" part? wink NEVA! *runs away into a corner and rubs hands together* Well... after my update it maybe, technically, irrefutable wink
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:27 am
My Conscience In essence, by your definition, I am a Pro-limited choice whee More extensively, Pro-limited choice only in the case of the mothers life being in danger. That would make you pro-life, actually. Quote: Pro-life - Abortion should not be allowed, life risks excepting.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:30 am
Mehh.
I'm still stuck on thrid trimester elective abortions.
I don't like them, but that doesn't leave a lot of options for the woman who is opposed to reproduction and doesn't discover her pregnancy until late term or the woman who wants her child in the beginning and has some unpredictable circumstance happen in her life late term.
I guess stop elective abortions at viability, and encourage sexually active women to test themselves regularly.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:45 pm
My Conscience Master_SL Grrr Toga made this topic before me!(Mainly because she arrived here before myself but still *sniffles*) Anywho I am pro choice, mainly beause I feel it is the woman's righ to terminate the pregnancy when she pleases. It is her body and it is also she who is carrying the child. Who are we to say no that she cannot have an abortion. Furthermore, I am also curious as to the reason for pro life besides the potential life argument, and many othes that in the end can be turned against themslves and debunked without much work. That means you believe even the day before the unborn's birth the women should be allowed to abort? You said she has the right to terminate the pregnacy when she pleases. I don't follow... potential life? The unborn has life. If you are wondering what the true pro-life arugment is, I am making an update to my current pro-life thread in the Extended Discussion. I should be done within a week or so. PLease do not twist my words around to suit your idea on my pro choice opinion please, nor should you take it to the extreme point. As for the potential life, I am speaking of in which they say, th child should not be aborted because they can be the one to cure AIDs and such. I am not assuming the pro lifers main argument so do not take offense either. As for life ithat is debateable, when does life truly begin? When the sperm and the egg meet to form the zygote which will inevitably shall fuse to the side of her uterus and begin the changes to become human? Or do you mean the eggs that the woman contains wthin her ovary which surely would be death for most of them seeing as women will never manage to rid herself of all those eggs. Or do you mean the point in which the fetus or off spring is conscious or do you mean self aware or the point in which afte rit is born? Or do you mean the point in which it can suck its thumb, move its leg? Understand my point now? Edit: To add to my first paragraph, if she chooses to abort the day before she has the chid, she most likely has a pretty good reason, especially if she decided to carry throughout most of the pregnancy. third trimester abortions are incredibly rare but they do happen and though it is something that I dslike I cannot say anything against it since I am not a woman which means I will never be in a position to understand has situation.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:20 pm
Master_SL PLease do not twist my words around to suit your idea on my pro choice opinion please, nor should you take it to the extreme point. Please do not start whining like the average ED tween when the debate goes into an unfavorable direction. You DID say and emphasize that you believe a woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy whenever she pleases. Now, if you choose to really subscribe to that belief, that would include the entirety of the gestation period, including Coco's example of the day before the would-be baby birth date.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:08 pm
I'm more than aware of the separation of church and state, but I'd still like to hear some of your opinions of the following article. It is my church's official statement regarding abortion. http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/wa_abortion.pdfI can understand the reasoning of being pro-choice, and I like the idea. But as a Missouri Synod Lutheran, I feel like I cannot accept that abortion isn't murder. If I wasn't a Missouri Synod Lutheran, I'd definitely be pro-choice, but now I'm not so sure. Can anybody help me out?
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:40 pm
SoundDoctrine I'm more than aware of the separation of church and state, but I'd still like to hear some of your opinions of the following article. It is my church's official statement regarding abortion. http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/wa_abortion.pdfI can understand the reasoning of being pro-choice, and I like the idea. But as a Missouri Synod Lutheran, I feel like I cannot accept that abortion isn't murder. If I wasn't a Missouri Synod Lutheran, I'd definitely be pro-choice, but now I'm not so sure. Can anybody help me out? I just recently came across this interesting page regarding the Bible and abortion: What does the bible say about abortion?Now, I am not aware of what this would mean to a Missouri Synod Lutheran, but I hope it is of some use to you.
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:57 pm
Toga! Toga! SoundDoctrine I'm more than aware of the separation of church and state, but I'd still like to hear some of your opinions of the following article. It is my church's official statement regarding abortion. http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/LCMS/wa_abortion.pdfI can understand the reasoning of being pro-choice, and I like the idea. But as a Missouri Synod Lutheran, I feel like I cannot accept that abortion isn't murder. If I wasn't a Missouri Synod Lutheran, I'd definitely be pro-choice, but now I'm not so sure. Can anybody help me out? I just recently came across this interesting page regarding the Bible and abortion: What does the bible say about abortion?Now, I am not aware of what this would mean to a Missouri Synod Lutheran, but I hope it is of some use to you. Thank you Toga! That does help! heart
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Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:43 pm
Toga! Toga! Master_SL PLease do not twist my words around to suit your idea on my pro choice opinion please, nor should you take it to the extreme point. Please do not start whining like the average ED tween when the debate goes into an unfavorable direction. You DID say and emphasize that you believe a woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy whenever she pleases. Now, if you choose to really subscribe to that belief, that would include the entirety of the gestation period, including Coco's example of the day before the would-be baby birth date. Which is why i placed the edit in my post so that i could fully specifiy. Before I had intended simply for first and second trimester since the third trimiester it is unusually rare for a woman to have an abortion (and illegal i think). So to adress this I also added it in with the original post. I simply dislike it when people misinterpret what is written when I often make it obvious as to my views. However if he wished for me to specify (or she) they simply could ahve questioned me further rather than make an assumption. That and, whining is done only when youre a child. Ima big boy now XD
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