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 Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:28 pm
Talmar_Star_Blood GardianAngel - You keep saying that even if homosexuality is a sin, Yeshua will forgive it, so it odesn't matter if it's a sin or not. This argument MAKES ME SICK. Repeat, SICK. Does grace excuse sin? Do you really think that Yeshua's sacrifice for us allows us to continue our sinful lifestyle? This goes against EVERYTHING in the Brit Haddasha, and the Tanakh, too. Remember when there was that congregation where a man was having sex with his mother? Did Paul say, "OH, that's ok, Yehsua forgave you, so go have sex with whoever you want?" No. He said he was ashamed of the congregation, the ENTIRE congregation, and that the 2 commiting incest ought to be kicked out. Now - how do we know that incest is wrong? I mean, really, there are laws about it today. If you say "Cain and Seth mairried their sisters," people say "Ewww." We know incest is wrong because it's forbidden in the book of Vayyiqra. How do we know homosexuallity is a sin? Oh, we don't. We can't be sure. (Note - the proceding sentences were sarcasm.) DUH! Of course it's a sin - it too is forbidden in Vayyiqra. Both sins were punishable by death. Now, we no longer have to kill them, as Yeshua died for all, both Yisrael and H'Goyyim. So - homosexuallity is a sin, and it is NOT exceptable to say that we can sin because grace deletes it. Yeshua said those who keep the Torah will be honored in Heaven. He said those who do just and right things will be rewarded. He hated sin - remember when he threw the money lenders out of the temple? Face facts people - you can't conform the Bible to fit the world's values. You have to do the opposite. And nice arguing, Beans. Just a note about incest here - you guys do know it was allowed until the Exodous form Egypt, right? It wasn't till then that G-d forbid it. I never said that it was okay to keep going out and doing it. I just said that I don't believe that it is a sin, or that it's unforgivable. If it is, then there is no way out, because homosexuals can't change that. Also, the bible never condems homosexual feelings, just activity (aka: you can be homosexual, you just can't have homosexual sex). Sorry if it came out that way.
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:29 pm
Lethkhar Talmar_Star_Blood Shiroi Kokoro no Mendori Well, you also have to prove exactly WHY homosexuality is a sin, taking into account both science and God's infinite love. neutral So, God cares more about homosexuality than about, say, adultery? or maybe idolatry? Heresy, debauchery, murder and violence, sexual abuse, thievery? Isn't he just as likely to ask you why you didn't "save" that high school senior who got drunk at parties every weekend, or that girl you met in college who was wiccan, or your boss, who was sleeping with your coworker's wife, or your kleptomaniac friend from that weight watchers group? neutral Yes, God HAS placed rules over such behaviour, such as "only in marriage". As for "No ghey", he's said nothing of the sort; Christians have developed that out of their own prejudice. Quote: 3. How long do you have? In the Bible adultry goes hand in had with homosexuality. So almost every verse you read about aldultery, is in fact, abou homosexuality. Here is a very good one -Matthew 5:28 "You know the next commandment pretty well, too: 'Don't go to bed with another's spouse.' But don't think you've preserved your virtue simply by staying out of bed. Your heart can be corrupted by lust even quicker than your body. Those leering looks you think nobody notices—they also corrupt. " How exactly is that ACTUALLY about homosexuality?! ... Have you EVER read Vayyiqra(Leviticus?) Because Beans is right, if you read it, everything she's said is backed up. G-d did SO place rules over homosexuality. And pretty much every place in the entire Bible where adultury is mentioned, so is homosexuallity. So that argument stands. Besides that, I think that the thing about Oh, come off it. You don't honestly follow every single law in Leviticus. Or if you do, I am extremely impressed since a lot of it is up to coincidence. actually, he does. He's Jewish. They take the Torah very seriously. Quote: Quote: 3. How long do you have? In the Bible adultry goes hand in had with homosexuality. So almost every verse you read about aldultery, is in fact, abou homosexuality. Here is a very good one -Matthew 5:28 "You know the next commandment pretty well, too: 'Don't go to bed with another's spouse.' But don't think you've preserved your virtue simply by staying out of bed. Your heart can be corrupted by lust even quicker than your body. Those leering looks you think nobody notices—they also corrupt. " was used as a kind of illustration for all sin, not just adultury. Also, you people seem to think homosexuality is something that cannot be changed, that a person IS a homosexual. I'm here to tell you you're wrong. I used to think I was "gay," but I grew closer to G-d, and as I did, those desires of sin dissapeared. I like girls now, well, one girl in particular. Personal experience and interpretation does not account for an actual fact.
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:32 pm
Lethkhar Talmar_Star_Blood (The only problem with arguing with athiests is I have to keep awnsering the same questions.) Because G-d forbid us to eat from the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil. That's 'knololege' in the experiancing sense. Satan, in the form of a snake, twisted G-d's words, and tricked Eve into eating the fruit. Then, she told Adam to eat, and he also did. They now had the capacity to sin, and G-d cursed them. For a better versian, read B'rashit(Genisis.) (Hey, you have to at least admit that they're valid questions.) I have read Genesis. So here's another question: If both Adam and Eve were created not subject to sin, why on earth did they sin by eating the fruit? They weren't created perfect, they were just created pure. If they were perfect, then they would have chosen not to sin, and this whole mess wouldn't have started in the first place. They were given a choice, and they chose wrongly (please don't start up the free will argument again.)
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:33 pm
Wow, this is the first of my topics to be such a success. I'm amazed.
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:03 pm
GuardianAngel44 Lethkhar Talmar_Star_Blood Shiroi Kokoro no Mendori Well, you also have to prove exactly WHY homosexuality is a sin, taking into account both science and God's infinite love. neutral So, God cares more about homosexuality than about, say, adultery? or maybe idolatry? Heresy, debauchery, murder and violence, sexual abuse, thievery? Isn't he just as likely to ask you why you didn't "save" that high school senior who got drunk at parties every weekend, or that girl you met in college who was wiccan, or your boss, who was sleeping with your coworker's wife, or your kleptomaniac friend from that weight watchers group? neutral Yes, God HAS placed rules over such behaviour, such as "only in marriage". As for "No ghey", he's said nothing of the sort; Christians have developed that out of their own prejudice. Quote: 3. How long do you have? In the Bible adultry goes hand in had with homosexuality. So almost every verse you read about aldultery, is in fact, abou homosexuality. Here is a very good one -Matthew 5:28 "You know the next commandment pretty well, too: 'Don't go to bed with another's spouse.' But don't think you've preserved your virtue simply by staying out of bed. Your heart can be corrupted by lust even quicker than your body. Those leering looks you think nobody notices—they also corrupt. " How exactly is that ACTUALLY about homosexuality?! ... Have you EVER read Vayyiqra(Leviticus?) Because Beans is right, if you read it, everything she's said is backed up. G-d did SO place rules over homosexuality. And pretty much every place in the entire Bible where adultury is mentioned, so is homosexuallity. So that argument stands. Besides that, I think that the thing about Oh, come off it. You don't honestly follow every single law in Leviticus. Or if you do, I am extremely impressed since a lot of it is up to coincidence. actually, he does. He's Jewish. They take the Torah very seriously. My cousins are Jewish. Sure, they don't eat certain foods, but even they admit to sinning.
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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:04 pm
GuardianAngel44 Lethkhar Talmar_Star_Blood (The only problem with arguing with athiests is I have to keep awnsering the same questions.) Because G-d forbid us to eat from the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil. That's 'knololege' in the experiancing sense. Satan, in the form of a snake, twisted G-d's words, and tricked Eve into eating the fruit. Then, she told Adam to eat, and he also did. They now had the capacity to sin, and G-d cursed them. For a better versian, read B'rashit(Genisis.) (Hey, you have to at least admit that they're valid questions.) I have read Genesis. So here's another question: If both Adam and Eve were created not subject to sin, why on earth did they sin by eating the fruit? They weren't created perfect, they were just created pure. If they were perfect, then they would have chosen not to sin, and this whole mess wouldn't have started in the first place. They were given a choice, and they chose wrongly (please don't start up the free will argument again.) He said humans were created perfect. Therefore, I would ask that he explain his beliefs to me, not yours. That's why I had him define "perfect".
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:19 am
Lethkhar Talmar_Star_Blood (The only problem with arguing with athiests is I have to keep awnsering the same questions.) Because G-d forbid us to eat from the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil. That's 'knololege' in the experiancing sense. Satan, in the form of a snake, twisted G-d's words, and tricked Eve into eating the fruit. Then, she told Adam to eat, and he also did. They now had the capacity to sin, and G-d cursed them. For a better versian, read B'rashit(Genisis.) (Hey, you have to at least admit that they're valid questions.) I have read Genesis. So here's another question: If both Adam and Eve were created not subject to sin, why on earth did they sin by eating the fruit? I personally think that, just as human nature is now bad, but we can still do good, origianally, the reverse was true... if that makes sense...
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:25 am
Lethkhar GuardianAngel44 Lethkhar Talmar_Star_Blood Shiroi Kokoro no Mendori Well, you also have to prove exactly WHY homosexuality is a sin, taking into account both science and God's infinite love. neutral So, God cares more about homosexuality than about, say, adultery? or maybe idolatry? Heresy, debauchery, murder and violence, sexual abuse, thievery? Isn't he just as likely to ask you why you didn't "save" that high school senior who got drunk at parties every weekend, or that girl you met in college who was wiccan, or your boss, who was sleeping with your coworker's wife, or your kleptomaniac friend from that weight watchers group? neutral Yes, God HAS placed rules over such behaviour, such as "only in marriage". As for "No ghey", he's said nothing of the sort; Christians have developed that out of their own prejudice. Quote: 3. How long do you have? In the Bible adultry goes hand in had with homosexuality. So almost every verse you read about aldultery, is in fact, abou homosexuality. Here is a very good one -Matthew 5:28 "You know the next commandment pretty well, too: 'Don't go to bed with another's spouse.' But don't think you've preserved your virtue simply by staying out of bed. Your heart can be corrupted by lust even quicker than your body. Those leering looks you think nobody notices—they also corrupt. " How exactly is that ACTUALLY about homosexuality?! ... Have you EVER read Vayyiqra(Leviticus?) Because Beans is right, if you read it, everything she's said is backed up. G-d did SO place rules over homosexuality. And pretty much every place in the entire Bible where adultury is mentioned, so is homosexuallity. So that argument stands. Besides that, I think that the thing about Oh, come off it. You don't honestly follow every single law in Leviticus. Or if you do, I am extremely impressed since a lot of it is up to coincidence. actually, he does. He's Jewish. They take the Torah very seriously. My cousins are Jewish. Sure, they don't eat certain foods, but even they admit to sinning. Both of you are labouring under missconceptions. The only Jewish blood I have is centuries old. (But I do have it.) I take the Tarah serriously because G-d gave it for a reason. This is the wrong thread to debate this in, however. And do you serriously think I don't admit to my sin? Are you out of your mind? Of course I admit to my sin. Folllowing Mitzvot doesn't mean I won't admit I sin. I SIN! I HAVE AN EVIL HEART! I ADMIT IT! Do you admit it?
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:27 am
Lethkhar My cousins are Jewish. Sure, they don't eat certain foods, but even they admit to sinning. And it's WAY more than eating Kashrot.
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:50 am
Lethkhar Oh, come off it. You don't honestly follow every single law in Leviticus. Or if you do, I am extremely impressed since a lot of it is up to coincidence. What do you mean by 'up to coincidence?'
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:04 pm
Lethkhar GuardianAngel44 Lethkhar Talmar_Star_Blood (The only problem with arguing with athiests is I have to keep awnsering the same questions.) Because G-d forbid us to eat from the Tree of the Knowlege of Good and Evil. That's 'knololege' in the experiancing sense. Satan, in the form of a snake, twisted G-d's words, and tricked Eve into eating the fruit. Then, she told Adam to eat, and he also did. They now had the capacity to sin, and G-d cursed them. For a better versian, read B'rashit(Genisis.) (Hey, you have to at least admit that they're valid questions.) I have read Genesis. So here's another question: If both Adam and Eve were created not subject to sin, why on earth did they sin by eating the fruit? They weren't created perfect, they were just created pure. If they were perfect, then they would have chosen not to sin, and this whole mess wouldn't have started in the first place. They were given a choice, and they chose wrongly (please don't start up the free will argument again.) He said humans were created perfect. Therefore, I would ask that he explain his beliefs to me, not yours. That's why I had him define "perfect". Sorry.
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:06 pm
Talmar_Star_Blood Lethkhar GuardianAngel44 Lethkhar Talmar_Star_Blood ... Have you EVER read Vayyiqra(Leviticus?) Because Beans is right, if you read it, everything she's said is backed up. G-d did SO place rules over homosexuality. And pretty much every place in the entire Bible where adultury is mentioned, so is homosexuallity. So that argument stands. Besides that, I think that the thing about Oh, come off it. You don't honestly follow every single law in Leviticus. Or if you do, I am extremely impressed since a lot of it is up to coincidence. actually, he does. He's Jewish. They take the Torah very seriously. My cousins are Jewish. Sure, they don't eat certain foods, but even they admit to sinning. Both of you are labouring under missconceptions. The only Jewish blood I have is centuries old. (But I do have it.) I take the Tarah serriously because G-d gave it for a reason. This is the wrong thread to debate this in, however. And do you serriously think I don't admit to my sin? Are you out of your mind? Of course I admit to my sin. Folllowing Mitzvot doesn't mean I won't admit I sin. I SIN! I HAVE AN EVIL HEART! I ADMIT IT! Do you admit it? I never said that, he did. And yes, I sin. alot. Lust is a powerful temptation, my friend.
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:34 pm
GuardianAngel44 Talmar_Star_Blood Lethkhar GuardianAngel44 Lethkhar Talmar_Star_Blood ... Have you EVER read Vayyiqra(Leviticus?) Because Beans is right, if you read it, everything she's said is backed up. G-d did SO place rules over homosexuality. And pretty much every place in the entire Bible where adultury is mentioned, so is homosexuallity. So that argument stands. Besides that, I think that the thing about Oh, come off it. You don't honestly follow every single law in Leviticus. Or if you do, I am extremely impressed since a lot of it is up to coincidence. actually, he does. He's Jewish. They take the Torah very seriously. My cousins are Jewish. Sure, they don't eat certain foods, but even they admit to sinning. Both of you are labouring under missconceptions. The only Jewish blood I have is centuries old. (But I do have it.) I take the Tarah serriously because G-d gave it for a reason. This is the wrong thread to debate this in, however. And do you serriously think I don't admit to my sin? Are you out of your mind? Of course I admit to my sin. Folllowing Mitzvot doesn't mean I won't admit I sin. I SIN! I HAVE AN EVIL HEART! I ADMIT IT! Do you admit it? I never said that, he did. And yes, I sin. alot. Lust is a powerful temptation, my friend. That would be why I was talking to him, not you. And, yeah, it is...
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:26 pm
Talmar_Star_Blood Lethkhar My cousins are Jewish. Sure, they don't eat certain foods, but even they admit to sinning. And it's WAY more than eating Kashrot. Oh, I know that. 'Twas an example.
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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:27 pm
Talmar_Star_Blood Lethkhar GuardianAngel44 Lethkhar Talmar_Star_Blood ... Have you EVER read Vayyiqra(Leviticus?) Because Beans is right, if you read it, everything she's said is backed up. G-d did SO place rules over homosexuality. And pretty much every place in the entire Bible where adultury is mentioned, so is homosexuallity. So that argument stands. Besides that, I think that the thing about Oh, come off it. You don't honestly follow every single law in Leviticus. Or if you do, I am extremely impressed since a lot of it is up to coincidence. actually, he does. He's Jewish. They take the Torah very seriously. My cousins are Jewish. Sure, they don't eat certain foods, but even they admit to sinning. Both of you are labouring under missconceptions. The only Jewish blood I have is centuries old. (But I do have it.) I take the Tarah serriously because G-d gave it for a reason. This is the wrong thread to debate this in, however. And do you serriously think I don't admit to my sin? Are you out of your mind? Of course I admit to my sin. Folllowing Mitzvot doesn't mean I won't admit I sin. I SIN! I HAVE AN EVIL HEART! I ADMIT IT! Do you admit it? So why condemn homosexuals if you yourself are a sinner as well?
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