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You cannot simply 'Unify' The nations in the world. Goto Page: [] [<] 1 2 3 ... 4 5 6 [>] [»|]

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Invictus_88

PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:22 am


Swordmaster Dragon
The latter is simpler, insofar as "create anarchy, and then offer a choice" is simple. But the problem is still convincing those "outside the loop" that the inside is better. Of course, that requires the inside to actually BE better, but that's a different story. Even if the inside is better, trying to prove that to people requires them to accept that their country is inherently worse; it requires you to show them that all their nationalistic pride is unfounded. It's not as if people are going to simply accept the state when you say:

"We're better than you. Get rid of your identity, and we'll allow you to join us. Realize that you're simply incapable of supporting yourselves, and we'll help you."

While those are harsh words, and certainly incorrect, you can't help but acknowledge that this is what some people will hear, no matter how nicely you phrase it. Pride has the strange ability to distort logic.


Not at all.

You don't have to tell them that their country is worse (you never should, and never could), you can tell them that their country is good, and it is just the sort of influence the union could do with. "A mutually beneficial and deeply profitable agreement...and if you, Mr [Head of Government] made the decision that so benefited your people and ours, it would be a notable mark to your name in history. Very notable indeed; not that such things would be a concern to one such as yourself."

You're just a poor diplomat, you can never sell anoyone anything if it means they sacrifice their pride or, to a degree, their national identity.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:44 pm


While you're right - I could never be a diplomat - you're missing my point. People are inherently resentful of the concept of unification; most view it as complete and direct opposition to individuality. This is certainly true within a company, between towns, and between states; it only becomes even more visible at the national level. Unification *feels* like an assault on personal pride, even if it logically isn't.

But still, I concede, my words are wrong. What I mean is that convincing any public of unification will be a lengthy process, no matter how good the diplomat.

Swordmaster Dragon
Crew


Invictus_88

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:11 pm


Swordmaster Dragon
While you're right - I could never be a diplomat - you're missing my point. People are inherently resentful of the concept of unification; most view it as complete and direct opposition to individuality. This is certainly true within a company, between towns, and between states; it only becomes even more visible at the national level. Unification *feels* like an assault on personal pride, even if it logically isn't.

But still, I concede, my words are wrong. What I mean is that convincing any public of unification will be a lengthy process, no matter how good the diplomat.


It will be, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Nor any other united empire.

Novos would be the work of generations.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:13 am


Unification is possible, but I don't believe it would be a stable agreement until the global economy becomes socialist as a whole. The drive to acquire wealth and resources, and then to protect that they've gained, is a big reason why nations continue to maintain large militaries. And naturally the ones with the biggest militaries happen to be among the biggest crooks in the bunch.

Capitalism thrives on exploiting poor nations and their workers, and as long as they feel taken advantage of, they will be more likely to become interested in terrorist gangs.
It also thrives on profit and overconsumption of resources well beyond need, taking away the natural resources of less stable nations and luring their farmers to use their fields to grow monoculture crops for big businesses. They could be using the land to grow food for the hungry people around them...and at the same time saving the cost and fuel of shipping goods all over the planet.

People would be more likely to unify if they didn't think they'd be exploited or lose their job or in any other way have their lives ruined further by foreign powers.

Maryhl

Shy Werewolf


Swordmaster Dragon
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:53 pm


First off, Kagerou; love Umberto Eco, love your siggy.

Capitalism and socialism are simply opposite sides of the same continuum, and both extremes have severe sociopolitical consequences. While pure capitalism rewards those who have the least regard for the environment and their fellow man, pure socialism assaults one's work ethic and can decrease drive. While all of the countries in the world need to be more socialistic to enhance sustainability and stabilize the world economy, "pure" socialism (i.e. communism) will only do exactly what pure capitalism has done: incite terrorist organizations.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:40 pm


Swordmaster Dragon
First off, Kagerou; love Umberto Eco, love your siggy.

Danke. heart

Quote:
Capitalism and socialism are simply opposite sides of the same continuum, and both extremes have severe sociopolitical consequences. While pure capitalism rewards those who have the least regard for the environment and their fellow man, pure socialism assaults one's work ethic and can decrease drive. While all of the countries in the world need to be more socialistic to enhance sustainability and stabilize the world economy, "pure" socialism (i.e. communism) will only do exactly what pure capitalism has done: incite terrorist organizations.

Well, really... that's why I consider myself a Democratic Socialist. I believe socialism is a more sane way to manage the environment and ensure that people are treated fairly and have their fundamental rights protected. But I also believe people should have a say in what goes on around them and should be held directly responsible for the well-being of their community.

My instinct is to loath top-down solutions, and I dislike dogmatic justifications even more... something that gets me in trouble with the Marxists. Though I do see a need for a UN-like arrangement to keep everyone talking to each other and comparing notes.

I just think it both scientifically and morally sound to aim in this direction. There will never be a homeostatic world economy... the Earth just thrives on diversity...so we will always need to take that into account. Then there's Game Theory...which seems to prove that the majority of humans naturally expect fairness and tend to treat others well when they themselves are treated well. So I think socialism done right doesn't have to be scary and heavy-handed.

...bah, that's kind of ranty.... but hope you see where I'm coming from. xd

Maryhl

Shy Werewolf


Swordmaster Dragon
Crew

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:54 am


I do; I firmly believe that any and all solutions which will create an autonomous and stable (but not static) economy will work from the ground up. I think the best solution would be to take this socialist/communist, economic/political spectrum and striate it across larger regional divisions. What I mean is:

Community: The community will be responsible for taking care of its own environment, and ensuring that people have enough food, water, shelter, etc., even if they're not producing it (securing assets). Each person contributes in a fairly communistic way, save the existence of private businesses NOT dealing in necessary, public services.

County: The county acts as a self-sufficient body, producing its own food, water, energy, and is the first unit of government to participate in a democratic political system. It must also ensure the government control of necessary services, but will be the unit of government to control corporations. This will allow more economic freedom than the community level, but restrictive enough to place economic, ethical, and environmental sanctions.

Country: The counties all contribute to an overall democratic system of the country, reporting on all conditions and the general state of the Union. The country (federal) government would then be in charge of overall political and judicial jurisdiction, but very specifically on elements of national concern: trade, economics, overarching laws, etc.

Global: Each country will then hold a seat in a global system, entirely democratic, which will moderate trade and keep track of environmental resources.

So, each level becomes more democratic, but the communistic/socialistic atmosphere surrounding the primary levels ensures sustainability and prosperity.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:32 pm


That's not a bad start, though I would also like to push it a little further.

On each level, it's important to avoid having state figure heads. There will naturally be people that have a personality for this... but we really ought to move away from associating state with a person, because their their issues become ours... and everything breaks down. I suppose I'm not really sure how to abolish the country without abolishing it's role in organization. States and rulers are so naturally intertwined in the minds of the people.

There is also the matter of how money would work out. I wouldn't want to go back to bartering... but currency needs to go back to being based on practical commodities, as oppose to fiat currency, credit.. or anything else that has no basis in tangible reality. It just seems to me like one should give something real up front when they take something away from the environment or other people. At least there is a limit that way. And if people have their basic needs set, there really wouldn't be a need for it.

Maryhl

Shy Werewolf


Swordmaster Dragon
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:56 am


Well, what you're asking is that we go back to a barter system. I don't understand economics, either; the exchange of pieces of paper, whose relative rates are always changing and have (nearly) no tangible basis, for actual material goods as well as time, labor...even other forms of money. But there were two problems with the barter system. First, there was no set, common basis at all, and having "exact change" meant having objects of the right size and consistency and quality, nearly impossible. Second, the barter system assumes that the growth of items is consistent; if you trade apples for objects and have an apple tree in the backyard, you can simply keep acquiring objects with no work at all. In short, the barter system can lead to exploitation and inconsistency, sometimes even moreso than capitalism.

The problems with modern capitalistic economics are with their inefficiencies, not their goals. It's not so bad that a single fuji apple weighing 2 oz. is, say, $.20; it's that the same fuji apple has a different price in different countries, states, cities, even different supermarkets. And then to try to quantify the quality of the apple...entirely different problem. The point is that we still have no set basis with which to compare all objects. Perhaps this is not even possible; after all, an apple is more rare in certain parts of the world than in others, and so should have a higher price. But the same apples are rare in Africa, where the populous needs more basic fruits not only to eat and survive, but to create sustainable agroforestry industries (which perform fairly well in a wide array of marginalized land). So which is the deciding factor, economically: where it is rarer or who needs it more?

As for states and rulers, this can be accomplished - although a bit long-handed - by appointing several (say 5 or so) leaders. Then, there is low chance of collaboration and low chance of explicitly personal involvement. And - assuming the core tenants of equal rights and democratic process - these leaders should represent the views of the entire (insert regional sector) effectively.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:25 pm


Services for goods is best way, even if it reduces some to slavelike identity. Whether it involves barter system or capitalist system, services for goods is always the best way. Not necessarily services for money, that is problem in some cases. I would rather work for food than work for money.

[.Twin.Desire.]


Myslec
Crew

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:41 pm


I don't see any way to convert people of today's society into that kind of system. They would leave Novos crawling in a ditch before anyone had even heard of us. far too many people would never consent to such a lifestyle.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:19 pm


Service for goods also only works in communistic/third world poor economies. You'll never get someone to trade a service in order to obtain a luxury; only to obtain necessities and commodities. It makes sense to say "I'll build your fence if you feed me," or "I'll build your house in exchange for gold"; but it doesn't make sense to say "I'll be your physician for a plasma tv."

Even in implementing such a system in cases where it does work, we'd be separating those communities from the world economy. Bad times.

Swordmaster Dragon
Crew


Leprosy Breakdance

Tipsy Dabbler

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:34 pm


Myslec
I don't see any way to convert people of today's society into that kind of system. They would leave Novos crawling in a ditch before anyone had even heard of us. far too many people would never consent to such a lifestyle.
I second that opinion. The people of today are far too cynical and paranoid to accept such idealistic thoughts. Also, there's far too little political agreement within the ranks to start up such a system anyway.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:41 pm


My economic policy on currency: The government does everything for free, but the workers in the government get money straight from the mint. The rest of the nation gets their money the same way it works now. This gives the government flexibility, and leaves a currency system for the nation.

Leprosy Breakdance

Tipsy Dabbler

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Novos

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