|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:59 pm
Contra mundus Steven Hawkings I know Lenin set up contrition camps, I ask what did he do with the people, I asked people before and nobody will say. What did he do with the bourgeoisie and so called enemy of the people? Fight and imprison them I'm sure, this was mostly during the Russian Civil War I'm sure. A few who acted independently killed them. Quote: I knew he raped the Russian country side and made the farmers starve as a result. Farmers burned their crops and had revolts actually. Quote: I also know he tried to invade Luthienia to bridge a gap to Germany, he also ordered his so called freedom fighters to bomb railroads in other countries. Hmmm....I've never heard this....let me look it up. Quote: If a revolution requires the lambs then count me out. I recall those who win make history. Yes it's a sad reality, and Russian has endured some of that. Quote: Going back to Lenin he also caused the famine and cut the ruble price to be only worth 3% of its value, that was caused by Lenin saturating the value. No no no, to begin with areas like Russia and China had famines and shortages of crops very very often. It's not an abnormal thing. Yet it should be recognized agricultural polices were rarely drastic under Lenin as under Stalin. The idea of Kulaks barely started when he was alive. Quote: Wonder who supplied aid to them? Lets see the United States. So does killing 30,000 make you a ok guy and Stalin killing 50,000,000 million evil? U.S. aid? That soon after invading? He did create these camps I think (though I rarely hear about them now), however not at all for the purpose of extermination. I think it was perhaps in more of a PoW status. Situations are complicated, Lenin has perhaps disappointed me a few times, but is by no means comparable or close to comparable to the Stalin. Lenin had a revolution and Civil War to contend with in his time. Stalin took control during a more stable situation. Yes farmers did burn crops, also Lenin took the reaming food and was suppose to share it equally among people. The U.S aid came around 1921-1922, it was to ease the famine, other countries also helped but the U.S, gave the most. I'm aware that farming was poor even for America at that time, recall the Great Dust Ball in history? I ask then what did Lenin to to quell the famine? He did cause massive inflation by helping it, I know the reason is money is useless in a Marxist society regardless, don't you think he went way to fast?
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:48 pm
Well you should note that War Communism, which (I'm sorry if I'm assuming too much) is what you're speaking of, was instituted mostly during the Civil War because of the dire situation. The heavy handed policies of Lenin during that time were both came about during a time when the major urban areas endured a lack of food while the Soldiers needed substantial food to fight the White Military. Lenin himself did not need the grain or anything, but those starvign in the Cities as well as those out in the field in the South, North, East or West.
From the times your giving the U.S. support came around when Lenin instituted the NEP.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:23 pm
I refuse to say Mao killed 50, 60, 70 or whatever million people until Hitler's toll is revised from 12 million (Jews, gypsies, political prisoners, Poles etc.) up to 30 million to include the non-Jewish Soviet civilians his soldiers killed. Surely their deaths are as much related to Hitler as a bunch of Red Guards randomly deciding to bash someone to death is related to Mao. I don't really like Mao or anything, but it's only fair.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 4:44 am
That's a weird trade. If you think an estimate is wrong or not how you'd interpret it, then just say so. You don't have to treat people like bargaining chips. The government does that enough as it is. stare
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:54 pm
Contra mundus Well you should note that War Communism, which (I'm sorry if I'm assuming too much) is what you're speaking of, was instituted mostly during the Civil War because of the dire situation. The heavy handed policies of Lenin during that time were both came about during a time when the major urban areas endured a lack of food while the Soldiers needed substantial food to fight the White Military. Lenin himself did not need the grain or anything, but those starvign in the Cities as well as those out in the field in the South, North, East or West. From the times your giving the U.S. support came around when Lenin instituted the NEP. Lenin also for awhile was fighting Germany, though the Germans brought him back to Russia under the terms that he end the war with them. Yes between those dates is when the U.S. gave aid to Russia to curb the starvation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:56 pm
Demon Kagerou That's a weird trade. If you think an estimate is wrong or not how you'd interpret it, then just say so. You don't have to treat people like bargaining chips. The government does that enough as it is. stare Quite 2n151m get back in your cell.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:28 pm
Steven Hawkings Demon Kagerou That's a weird trade. If you think an estimate is wrong or not how you'd interpret it, then just say so. You don't have to treat people like bargaining chips. The government does that enough as it is. stare Quite 2n151m get back in your cell. "I am not a number! I am a free man!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 6:36 pm
Contra mundus Steven Hawkings Demon Kagerou That's a weird trade. If you think an estimate is wrong or not how you'd interpret it, then just say so. You don't have to treat people like bargaining chips. The government does that enough as it is. stare Quite 2n151m get back in your cell. "I am not a number! I am a free man!" "Ha, ha, ha, ha...."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:53 pm
TheRussianBlade Quote: All across the Russian countryside in 1917-22, there were riots and uprisings as heroic peasants tried desperately to hold on to their freedom. Umm, did I read that correctly? Hold on to what freedom? There was freedom under the Tsar? L-O-L Also that the counter revolution was small and fairly easily crushed and led and fought by former royalty for the most part. here's the thing that confuses me the most How exactly is that a possible belief?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:54 pm
TheRussianBlade I refuse to say Mao killed 50, 60, 70 or whatever million people until Hitler's toll is revised from 12 million (Jews, gypsies, political prisoners, Poles etc.) up to 30 million to include the non-Jewish Soviet civilians his soldiers killed. Surely their deaths are as much related to Hitler as a bunch of Red Guards randomly deciding to bash someone to death is related to Mao. I don't really like Mao or anything, but it's only fair.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:58 pm
Steven Hawkings evilsiletto First off, I want to say Trotsky was a fool, no wonder he got killed by an ice pick - He ran off, for fear of what might happen he was tracked to mexico - then coup de grace - R.I.P Trotsky - Didn't Lenin kill 30k people - yet people still respected him did they not? There was no freedom under the Czar, i'm afraid.. And poor Ana's family was in the middle of it. sad Putin.. So far, has made one mistake perhaps more - the cutting off of Georgia's oil/trade. If I remember correctly, that's exactly what America did, and the result? Bombing of Pearl Harbor - Midway - other sites i've forgotten. Marx, all I really know about him was he was the father of modern day communism - Meaning, everyone has the same amount of pay/food/clothing/ - according to their status.. But, what's that mean to something with royal blood? Like a king/queen? And the monarchy? Sorry for seeming to be off topic.. sweatdrop I'll learn my place someday.. What did he do with the bourgeoisie and so called enemy of the people? Quote: He gave the royalty a choice from what I've read- you can leave the country and never return, work and live like everyone else, or try to keep your stature in which case we'll kill you. Most of them left, a few worked, and several chose the last choice and the counter revolution was born.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:34 pm
The Leninator! How exactly is that a possible belief? Easy. Communism is socialism, but not all socialism is communism. How is it possible for communists to be communists when they support socialism? rolleyes "Socialism" is obviously the umbrella-term for leftist political-economic systems. A socialist anarchists, social anarchist, collective anarchist, etc... is just another way of saying you're a left-wing anarchist. As oppose to individualist anarchist, or anarcho-capitalist... whatever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:43 pm
Demon Kagerou The Leninator! How exactly is that a possible belief? Easy. Communism is socialism, but not all socialism is communism. How is it possible for communists to be communists when they support socialism? rolleyes "Socialism" is obviously the umbrella-term for leftist political-economic systems. A socialist anarchists, social anarchist, collective anarchist, etc... is just another way of saying you're a left-wing anarchist. As oppose to individualist anarchist, or anarcho-capitalist... whatever. I never saw it as that, but an interesting take. I will certainly keep that in mind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 4:31 am
It also appears there wasn't much of a distinction between socialists and anarchists before the whole Marxist-Leninist take over of the ideology.
In German Ideology, Marx refers to Proudhon a couple times when discussing property. Proudhon is supposed to be one of anarchy's "fathers" ... though he's also the first to be considered a libertarian socialist and proposed what is basically mutualism. Marx started with a lot of Proudhon's ideas from What is Property?...found out they didn't get along... then ran in his own direction.
Edit: Oh, went back through my notes and found that the mentions of Proudhon are actually in Marx's Pre-Capitalist Economic Formations. Not German Ideology. But that makes sense. xp
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 2:40 am
The Leninator! Steven Hawkings evilsiletto First off, I want to say Trotsky was a fool, no wonder he got killed by an ice pick - He ran off, for fear of what might happen he was tracked to mexico - then coup de grace - R.I.P Trotsky - Didn't Lenin kill 30k people - yet people still respected him did they not? There was no freedom under the Czar, i'm afraid.. And poor Ana's family was in the middle of it. sad Putin.. So far, has made one mistake perhaps more - the cutting off of Georgia's oil/trade. If I remember correctly, that's exactly what America did, and the result? Bombing of Pearl Harbor - Midway - other sites i've forgotten. Marx, all I really know about him was he was the father of modern day communism - Meaning, everyone has the same amount of pay/food/clothing/ - according to their status.. But, what's that mean to something with royal blood? Like a king/queen? And the monarchy? Sorry for seeming to be off topic.. sweatdrop I'll learn my place someday.. What did he do with the bourgeoisie and so called enemy of the people? Quote: He gave the royalty a choice from what I've read- you can leave the country and never return, work and live like everyone else, or try to keep your stature in which case we'll kill you. Most of them left, a few worked, and several chose the last choice and the counter revolution was born. Sounds a bit more fair, the ones a i read he downright killed them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
