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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:18 pm
abarrach phantomkitsune The only provable truth is 'I think, therefore I am.' Everything else is a series of interconnected and complex theories supported by evidence. How, exactly do you prove that statement? Even if you could prove that "I think", which I doubt you'd be able to prove irrefutably, how do you prove that it implies that "I am"? The statement "I think, therefore I am" is a way overused cliché. Ah I have to agree with you on that point. The only real truth I have seen is from one of our other threads I can never know more than that I exist. There are still ways to prove that you exist other than using that overly used phrase.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 3:23 pm
I don't believe there is such a thing as absolute truth. All truth is relative to a set of axioms or assumptions.
For example, the statement "2 + 3 = 5" is generally accepted as true. However, there are a number of assumptions underlying this statement, notably the meaning of the "+" operator, the meaning of the "=" predicate, the number system in use, etc. If our set of numbers is N_5 ([0..4]), then the statement is non-sensical because the number "5" doesn't exist in this model. However "2 + 3 = 0" is both sensical and true when "+" is the modular addition operator under N_5.
Okay, the details of the math above are not really relevant. The point is to show that truth is relative to context. The reason I used math is that it is an area that is generally recognized for its rigor in determining truth.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:30 pm
Kanon Vilente abarrach phantomkitsune The only provable truth is 'I think, therefore I am.' Everything else is a series of interconnected and complex theories supported by evidence. How, exactly do you prove that statement? Even if you could prove that "I think", which I doubt you'd be able to prove irrefutably, how do you prove that it implies that "I am"? The statement "I think, therefore I am" is a way overused cliché. Ah I have to agree with you on that point. The only real truth I have seen is from one of our other threads I can never know more than that I exist. There are still ways to prove that you exist other than using that overly used phrase. "I think therefore I am" is quoted, and the reasoning behind what is now a cliche deserves at least the recognition that someone came up with it. All assumptions, or truths, if you prefer, are based on the presumption that we exist. How do we know that? We are self-aware. Even if we are brains hooked up to a giant machine, we still know that we, as beings, exist. Everything else is our interpretation of existence, and thus based on this.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:07 pm
Im wary of truth, I have modified what socrates said, "the only thing I know for sure is that I know only one thing." But that is a lie, I know 2 + 3 = 5, I cant stop my self from knowing it... or believing it.
I tried years ago to ken the thought processes on truth. I gave up... maybe I was to young.
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:52 am
murderface Im wary of truth, I have modified what socrates said, "the only thing I know for sure is that I know only one thing." But that is a lie, I know 2 + 3 = 5, I cant stop my self from knowing it... or believing it. I tried years ago to ken the thought processes on truth. I gave up... maybe I was to young. Numbers are a numberic system. it's like time you can't say it's a universal system--it's a universal concept, thus not shared.
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:01 am
I have found #2 to be true.
After looking at dioism (spelling), which basically stats that 1 can not possible exist without 1. And from this you could make the argument that all reality is a paradox so the only absolutes that can exist are paradoxes.
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Sand From The Future(GTD)
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:33 am
It's quite simple really, majority rules.
I'm an Atheist, so in my eyes, there was never some random guy that enlightened our species with truths. We started from scratch, and if everyone agreed on a concept, we concluded it was fact. We made mistakes, but on a whole scale, it made life easier for the majority.
The people who get worked up about little flaws like that usually are doing so because they don't have a proper argument, but that's just me categorizing people and you shouldn't really take it to heart and let it have an impact on the point I tried to make above this paragraph.
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 6:44 am
There certainly are alot of interesting opinions in here. Although I haven't seen the group census option until now.
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:45 am
Kanon Vilente abarrach phantomkitsune The only provable truth is 'I think, therefore I am.' Everything else is a series of interconnected and complex theories supported by evidence. How, exactly do you prove that statement? Even if you could prove that "I think", which I doubt you'd be able to prove irrefutably, how do you prove that it implies that "I am"? The statement "I think, therefore I am" is a way overused cliché. Ah I have to agree with you on that point. The only real truth I have seen is from one of our other threads I can never know more than that I exist. There are still ways to prove that you exist other than using that overly used phrase. Existence of consciousness is also proof of the existence of an external world (as you cannot merely be conscious, you must be conscious of something). It isn't possible to ascertain the true nature of yourself, or of the external world, but their existence is actually shown by the "I think, therefore I am" cliché.
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:57 pm
murderface Im wary of truth, I have modified what socrates said, "the only thing I know for sure is that I know only one thing." But that is a lie, I know 2 + 3 = 5, I cant stop my self from knowing it... or believing it. I tried years ago to ken the thought processes on truth. I gave up... maybe I was to young. I was trying to show that 2 + 3 = 5 is not always true. It depends on context. That statement (the equation) is true in the default context where we don't specify the axioms or assumptions. But default context in which we do basic arithmetic in day to day dealings does have axioms, and we need to be aware of that fact. We assume this is the context we work with unless otherwise specified. Here's another little math example that may be more recognizable : 1 + 1 = 10; false in the "default" context, but true in binary. We make similar assumptions in other areas of reasoning, and left unchecked, we easily make unsound assumptions which lead to flawed, and sometimes non-sensical conclusions. Here's an example of unstated assumptions. Babies come from sex between men and women. Men having sex with men can't produce babies. Therefore, homo sex is wrong. The unstated assumption : The only reason to have sex is to reproduce. Other conclusions that can be drawn from this assumption : All sex without reproduction is wrong. Here's another. Ships that go off too far in the ocean never come back. Therefore the Earth is flat. Unstated assumption : The ships fell off the edge of the Earth. (Okay, I'm really not sure what their reasoning was back then, but I'm sure it made sense to them.) If you're not sure what I was talking about with the math, it's probably for the same reason people used to think the earth was flat : You didn't have any reason to think any other possibility could be true.
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:06 pm
I may be new here but I'd like to bring a new card to the table.
Perception.
Perception makes everything in this world. It makes reality, it makes truth.
However, perception, reality and truth all go hand in hand.
Reality is created by the perception of the truth that is already present. However, truth can not be created without perception which is based on the reality that the truth is there in the first place. In short, truth and reality are in fact, one in the same.
So, let's get rid of one of them. Let's say we only have perception and reality. What happens when you take one of them away? Right. The other disappears as well.
It's the theory of opposites. The theory of opposites states that for every negative there must be a positive and for every light there must be a dark. There are flaws and exceptions to this however.
The most absolute answer that I have come up with is something of an enigma in itself. The answer can only be gained by asking the question. But what if the question is not known? Then the answer can never be gained. We must first find the question before we find the answer.
Who knows? The question could lead to an answer which will change the entire world.
This is only a theory by itself but it's one I've formulated over the years.
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:05 pm
abarrach murderface Im wary of truth, I have modified what socrates said, "the only thing I know for sure is that I know only one thing." But that is a lie, I know 2 + 3 = 5, I cant stop my self from knowing it... or believing it. I tried years ago to ken the thought processes on truth. I gave up... maybe I was to young. I was trying to show that 2 + 3 = 5 is not always true. It depends on context. That statement (the equation) is true in the default context where we don't specify the axioms or assumptions. But default context in which we do basic arithmetic in day to day dealings does have axioms, and we need to be aware of that fact. We assume this is the context we work with unless otherwise specified. Here's another little math example that may be more recognizable : 1 + 1 = 10; false in the "default" context, but true in binary. We make similar assumptions in other areas of reasoning, and left unchecked, we easily make unsound assumptions which lead to flawed, and sometimes non-sensical conclusions. Here's an example of unstated assumptions. Babies come from sex between men and women. Men having sex with men can't produce babies. Therefore, homo sex is wrong. The unstated assumption : The only reason to have sex is to reproduce. Other conclusions that can be drawn from this assumption : All sex without reproduction is wrong. Here's another. Ships that go off too far in the ocean never come back. Therefore the Earth is flat. Unstated assumption : The ships fell off the edge of the Earth. (Okay, I'm really not sure what their reasoning was back then, but I'm sure it made sense to them.) If you're not sure what I was talking about with the math, it's probably for the same reason people used to think the earth was flat : You didn't have any reason to think any other possibility could be true. I see where you're going, and it's something that did need to be pointed out. With the Mathematics sum though, you could be incredibly specific about the sum, and leave no room for false interpretation. So it really would be a truth, not a exactly a great truth that'll open any new doors, but still a truth.
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Sand From The Future(GTD)
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Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 9:04 pm
This sentence is false stressed That's a paradox for ya.
I agree with Descartes; "I think, therefore I am." I am a self-aware entity, and if I don't exist, how could I be thinking? Of course, if you wanted to, you could probably counter that... but how do I know YOU exist? *head asplode*
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 3:49 am
Contagious Cure Kanon Vilente abarrach phantomkitsune The only provable truth is 'I think, therefore I am.' Everything else is a series of interconnected and complex theories supported by evidence. How, exactly do you prove that statement? Even if you could prove that "I think", which I doubt you'd be able to prove irrefutably, how do you prove that it implies that "I am"? The statement "I think, therefore I am" is a way overused cliché. Ah I have to agree with you on that point. The only real truth I have seen is from one of our other threads I can never know more than that I exist. There are still ways to prove that you exist other than using that overly used phrase. Existence of consciousness is also proof of the existence of an external world (as you cannot merely be conscious, you must be conscious of something). It isn't possible to ascertain the true nature of yourself, or of the external world, but their existence is actually shown by the "I think, therefore I am" cliché. I don't think it proves the existence of an external world. You can merely be conscious. Consider the variety of experience you can have in imagination - none of this comes directly from the external world, so it is at least possible that consciousness is all there is. You can be conscious of your own conscious existence and the experiential variations within it. But, in response to teh first post, Descartes' cogito is supposed to be that first truth that enables other truths to be built on it - and it doesn't have to be analysed as a premiss and a conclusion. It can be seen as a whole, self evident truth.
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:09 am
Kanon Vilente The only means by which you can justify a truth, is to already have a truth. In my opinion this paradox is the skeptics best friend as it throws the whole concept of a philosophers ability to gain awareness of actual truth into question. 1. If truth is what we use to prove something's true, then the only way we can prove something's true is to already have truth. But if we do not already have truth how can we prove that? The only way I can think to solve this is to suppose we have inherent truths. But that wouldn't sit to well with empricists. 2. "Most Truth can only be expressed in circular paradoxes." I just wish to hear other opinions on this subject. Though all are possiblities, I believe that truth comes from not having something that true as evidence of the truth, but to show whoever that certain things are untrue in which leaves only one possibility making it the truth. *shrugs* The Art of Deduction I guess you can say.
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