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 Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:36 pm
SoViEtTaNkT34 Contra mundus Demon Kagerou Meh, generally Left-Communist. Mix of influences... obviously Marx, plus Rosa Luxemburg, Trotsky, and a couple Anarchists. So you know I piss people off. Unless your going around saying Communists suck, Marx was an idiot and Bakunin, Communists are too naieve , or Communism itself goes about everything completely wrong. I'm not upset. I don't think you say anything like that so currently you are pretty high in my list of people I don't hate. Bakunin was an anarchist? Indeed he was.
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:11 pm
Lady Merewyn Contra mundus State and revolution...isnt' so much a Marxist idea as it was more relevant to Russia. I meant more in the context that he turned Marxism away from the revisionist ideas of Kautsky. What State and Revolution did really was to adapt the ideas of Marxism to Lenin's context... Marx himself hadn't written much about the role of the state, whereas Lenin built upon what little Marx did write about it. But the entire idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat, of a socialist government being a dying government, etc... that was Lenin at his finest. Those ideas are somewhat Marx's, he hints at them in his works. That is why Lenin is seen as his ideological heir. It is theorized that perhaps if Marx had lived longer he would have elaborated into subjects further suggesting those ideas. Sadly he didn't and we are without that possibility and quite a bit of Capital Vol. 4 ! sad
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:23 pm
Contra mundus Zacheryk Contra mundus Haha everyone voted Marxism-Leninism. Marx is the first intial peprson to develop the theory and Lenin is the obvious continuation. I think Sir Thomas Moore 1st thought of it.... in his book utopia Moore theorized Marxism? Oh wait, nevermind. You do kown what i am talking about?
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:50 pm
Zacheryk Contra mundus Zacheryk Contra mundus Haha everyone voted Marxism-Leninism. Marx is the first intial peprson to develop the theory and Lenin is the obvious continuation. I think Sir Thomas Moore 1st thought of it.... in his book utopia Moore theorized Marxism? Oh wait, nevermind. You do kown what i am talking about? I do, I just was thinking in the context of Marx and Scientific Socialism, which Marx did in fact start.
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:13 pm
Contra mundus Lady Merewyn Contra mundus State and revolution...isnt' so much a Marxist idea as it was more relevant to Russia. I meant more in the context that he turned Marxism away from the revisionist ideas of Kautsky. What State and Revolution did really was to adapt the ideas of Marxism to Lenin's context... Marx himself hadn't written much about the role of the state, whereas Lenin built upon what little Marx did write about it. But the entire idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat, of a socialist government being a dying government, etc... that was Lenin at his finest. Those ideas are somewhat Marx's, he hints at them in his works. That is why Lenin is seen as his ideological heir. It is theorized that perhaps if Marx had lived longer he would have elaborated into subjects further suggesting those ideas. Sadly he didn't and we are without that possibility and quite a bit of Capital Vol. 4 ! sad But since Marx didn't get the chance to elaborate them, we got Lenin's continuation instead. And those particular theories are so integral to communism that Marx and Lenin are often juxtaposed. Hence the term Marxism-Leninism. Although it would make sense for Engels to take some credit... He and Marx go hand in hand as well.
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:38 pm
Contra mundus Demon Kagerou Meh, generally Left-Communist. Mix of influences... obviously Marx, plus Rosa Luxemburg, Trotsky, and a couple Anarchists. So you know I piss people off. Unless your going around saying Communists suck, Marx was an idiot and Bakunin, Communists are too naieve , or Communism itself goes about everything completely wrong. I'm not upset. I don't think you say anything like that so currently you are pretty high in my list of people I don't hate. Hm... I suppose I could try harder. I propose that anyone found to be a dictator of a country should not be allowed to have a Communist ideology named after them. And if any country suffers collapse largely due to said person's policies... Anarchists are allowed to mock the people of said nonexistent ideology as much as they like.
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:49 pm
Demon Kagerou Contra mundus Demon Kagerou Meh, generally Left-Communist. Mix of influences... obviously Marx, plus Rosa Luxemburg, Trotsky, and a couple Anarchists. So you know I piss people off. Unless your going around saying Communists suck, Marx was an idiot and Bakunin, Communists are too naieve , or Communism itself goes about everything completely wrong. I'm not upset. I don't think you say anything like that so currently you are pretty high in my list of people I don't hate. Hm... I suppose I could try harder. I propose that anyone found to be a dictator of a country should not be allowed to have a Communist ideology named after them. And if any country suffers collapse largely due to said person's policies... Anarchists are allowed to mock the people of said nonexistent ideology as much as they like. Sounds like we have some re-naming in order then. 3nodding
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:05 pm
Merely a Shade Contra mundus Lady Merewyn Contra mundus State and revolution...isnt' so much a Marxist idea as it was more relevant to Russia. I meant more in the context that he turned Marxism away from the revisionist ideas of Kautsky. What State and Revolution did really was to adapt the ideas of Marxism to Lenin's context... Marx himself hadn't written much about the role of the state, whereas Lenin built upon what little Marx did write about it. But the entire idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat, of a socialist government being a dying government, etc... that was Lenin at his finest. Those ideas are somewhat Marx's, he hints at them in his works. That is why Lenin is seen as his ideological heir. It is theorized that perhaps if Marx had lived longer he would have elaborated into subjects further suggesting those ideas. Sadly he didn't and we are without that possibility and quite a bit of Capital Vol. 4 ! sad But since Marx didn't get the chance to elaborate them, we got Lenin's continuation instead. And tho se particular theories are so integral to communism that Marx and Lenin are often juxtaposed. Hence the term Marxism-Leninism. Although it would make sense for Engels to take some credit... He and Marx go hand in hand as well. Out of the pair many just look at Marx, why I don't know, they also consider Marx a better theorist, I don't though. It's pretty obvious that if Engels wasn't around Marx as we know him would not exist. Anyways Capital Vol. 4 kinda exists...it came out as History of Surplus Labour or soemthing from Kautsky. I haven't read though since I'm still on chapter 1 of Capital Vol. 1. Quote: Hm... I suppose I could try harder. I propose that anyone found to be a dictator of a country should not be allowed to have a Communist ideology named after them. And if any country suffers collapse largely due to said person's policies... Anarchists are allowed to mock the people of said nonexistent ideology as much as they like. And I propose all forms of Anarchy that were tried adn crushed brutally be renamed or scrapped altogether! That's two down I know of. Dis! Although I kinda do like Syndicalism to be honest... sad
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:16 pm
Contra mundus Merely a Shade Contra mundus Lady Merewyn Contra mundus State and revolution...isnt' so much a Marxist idea as it was more relevant to Russia. I meant more in the context that he turned Marxism away from the revisionist ideas of Kautsky. What State and Revolution did really was to adapt the ideas of Marxism to Lenin's context... Marx himself hadn't written much about the role of the state, whereas Lenin built upon what little Marx did write about it. But the entire idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat, of a socialist government being a dying government, etc... that was Lenin at his finest. Those ideas are somewhat Marx's, he hints at them in his works. That is why Lenin is seen as his ideological heir. It is theorized that perhaps if Marx had lived longer he would have elaborated into subjects further suggesting those ideas. Sadly he didn't and we are without that possibility and quite a bit of Capital Vol. 4 ! sad But since Marx didn't get the chance to elaborate them, we got Lenin's continuation instead. And tho se particular theories are so integral to communism that Marx and Lenin are often juxtaposed. Hence the term Marxism-Leninism. Although it would make sense for Engels to take some credit... He and Marx go hand in hand as well. Out of the pair many just look at Marx, why I don't know, they also consider Marx a better theorist, I don't though. It's pretty obvious that if Engels wasn't around Marx as we know him would not exist. Anyways Capital Vol. 4 kinda exists...it came out as History of Surplus Labour or soemthing from Kautsky. I haven't read though since I'm still on chapter 1 of Capital Vol. 1. Quote: Hm... I suppose I could try harder. I propose that anyone found to be a dictator of a country should not be allowed to have a Communist ideology named after them. And if any country suffers collapse largely due to said person's policies... Anarchists are allowed to mock the people of said nonexistent ideology as much as they like. And I propose all forms of Anarchy that were tried adn crushed brutally be renamed or scrapped altogether! That's two down I know of. Dis! Although I kinda do like Syndicalism to be honest... sad In terms of personality and philosophy, Engels was more of a dialectic-materialist, whereas Marx was more of a historical-materialist. The two go hand in hand though, and they were often co-authors. Its a pity really that Engels doesn't get more credit, although even I myself tend to not read enough of his writings.
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:21 pm
Merely a Shade Contra mundus Merely a Shade Contra mundus Lady Merewyn What State and Revolution did really was to adapt the ideas of Marxism to Lenin's context... Marx himself hadn't written much about the role of the state, whereas Lenin built upon what little Marx did write about it. But the entire idea of the dictatorship of the proletariat, of a socialist government being a dying government, etc... that was Lenin at his finest. Those ideas are somewhat Marx's, he hints at them in his works. That is why Lenin is seen as his ideological heir. It is theorized that perhaps if Marx had lived longer he would have elaborated into subjects further suggesting those ideas. Sadly he didn't and we are without that possibility and quite a bit of Capital Vol. 4 ! sad But since Marx didn't get the chance to elaborate them, we got Lenin's continuation instead. And tho se particular theories are so integral to communism that Marx and Lenin are often juxtaposed. Hence the term Marxism-Leninism. Although it would make sense for Engels to take some credit... He and Marx go hand in hand as well. Out of the pair many just look at Marx, why I don't know, they also consider Marx a better theorist, I don't though. It's pretty obvious that if Engels wasn't around Marx as we know him would not exist. Anyways Capital Vol. 4 kinda exists...it came out as History of Surplus Labour or soemthing from Kautsky. I haven't read though since I'm still on chapter 1 of Capital Vol. 1. Quote: Hm... I suppose I could try harder. I propose that anyone found to be a dictator of a country should not be allowed to have a Communist ideology named after them. And if any country suffers collapse largely due to said person's policies... Anarchists are allowed to mock the people of said nonexistent ideology as much as they like. And I propose all forms of Anarchy that were tried adn crushed brutally be renamed or scrapped altogether! That's two down I know of. Dis! Although I kinda do like Syndicalism to be honest... sad In terms of personality and philosophy, Engels was more of a dialectic-materialist, whereas Marx was more of a historical-materialist. The two go hand in hand though, and they were often co-authors. Its a pity really that Engels doesn't get more credit, although even I myself tend to not read enough of his writings. I don't know about that since I thin kthe German Ideology was a product of Marx's, but one must consider two things. One, Marx was a student of Hegel in the begining, in his youth he was more of a Dialectical-Spiritualist. It took him quite a while to slowly move over to Dialectics. Second Engels was a Communist long before Marx was. In any case...Dialectical Materialist is really different from Historical-Materialist?
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:30 pm
Contra mundus Merely a Shade Contra mundus Merely a Shade Contra mundus Those ideas are somewhat Marx's, he hints at them in his works. That is why Lenin is seen as his ideological heir. It is theorized that perhaps if Marx had lived longer he would have elaborated into subjects further suggesting those ideas. Sadly he didn't and we are without that possibility and quite a bit of Capital Vol. 4 ! sad But since Marx didn't get the chance to elaborate them, we got Lenin's continuation instead. And tho se particular theories are so integral to communism that Marx and Lenin are often juxtaposed. Hence the term Marxism-Leninism. Although it would make sense for Engels to take some credit... He and Marx go hand in hand as well. Out of the pair many just look at Marx, why I don't know, they also consider Marx a better theorist, I don't though. It's pretty obvious that if Engels wasn't around Marx as we know him would not exist. Anyways Capital Vol. 4 kinda exists...it came out as History of Surplus Labour or soemthing from Kautsky. I haven't read though since I'm still on chapter 1 of Capital Vol. 1. Quote: Hm... I suppose I could try harder. I propose that anyone found to be a dictator of a country should not be allowed to have a Communist ideology named after them. And if any country suffers collapse largely due to said person's policies... Anarchists are allowed to mock the people of said nonexistent ideology as much as they like. And I propose all forms of Anarchy that were tried adn crushed brutally be renamed or scrapped altogether! That's two down I know of. Dis! Although I kinda do like Syndicalism to be honest... sad In terms of personality and philosophy, Engels was more of a dialectic-materialist, whereas Marx was more of a historical-materialist. The two go hand in hand though, and they were often co-authors. Its a pity really that Engels doesn't get more credit, although even I myself tend to not read enough of his writings. I don't know about that since I thin kthe German Ideology was a product of Marx's, but one must consider two things. One, Marx was a student of Hegel in the begining, in his youth he was more of a Dialectical-Spiritualist. It took him quite a while to slowly move over to Dialectics. Second Engels was a Communist long before Marx was. In any case...Dialectical Materialist is really different from Historical-Materialist? Only slightly different, and the two complement each other. Historical-materialism is the methodology of the application dialectics and empiricism to history. Dialectic materialism, as I understand it, is slightly more philosophical in nature, and it is the concept of dialectics (thesis + antithesis = synthesis) applied to the material world, which is also differentiated from Hegel's use of dialectics with reference to God.
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:46 pm
Merely a Shade Contra mundus Merely a Shade Contra mundus Merely a Shade But since Marx didn't get the chance to elaborate them, we got Lenin's continuation instead. And tho se particular theories are so integral to communism that Marx and Lenin are often juxtaposed. Hence the term Marxism-Leninism. Although it would make sense for Engels to take some credit... He and Marx go hand in hand as well. Out of the pair many just look at Marx, why I don't know, they also consider Marx a better theorist, I don't though. It's pretty obvious that if Engels wasn't around Marx as we know him would not exist. Anyways Capital Vol. 4 kinda exists...it came out as History of Surplus Labour or soemthing from Kautsky. I haven't read though since I'm still on chapter 1 of Capital Vol. 1. Quote: Hm... I suppose I could try harder. I propose that anyone found to be a dictator of a country should not be allowed to have a Communist ideology named after them. And if any country suffers collapse largely due to said person's policies... Anarchists are allowed to mock the people of said nonexistent ideology as much as they like. And I propose all forms of Anarchy that were tried adn crushed brutally be renamed or scrapped altogether! That's two down I know of. Dis! Although I kinda do like Syndicalism to be honest... sad In terms of personality and philosophy, Engels was more of a dialectic-materialist, whereas Marx was more of a historical-materialist. The two go hand in hand though, and they were often co-authors. Its a pity really that Engels doesn't get more credit, although even I myself tend to not read enough of his writings. I don't know about that since I thin kthe German Ideology was a product of Marx's, but one must consider two things. One, Marx was a student of Hegel in the begining, in his youth he was more of a Dialectical-Spiritualist. It took him quite a while to slowly move over to Dialectics. Second Engels was a Communist long before Marx was. In any case...Dialectical Materialist is really different from Historical-Materialist? Only slightly different, and the two complement each other. Historical-materialism is the methodology of the application dialectics and empiricism to history. Dialectic materialism, as I understand it, is slightly more philosophical in nature, and it is the concept of dialectics (thesis + antithesis = synthesis) applied to the material world, which is also differentiated from Hegel's use of dialectics with reference to God. He uses that though....I'm pretty sure that's what Hegel used too. From what little I read of Hegel...it's the application of dialectics and God to History. The world changes because it's the way God wishes it to change and evolve. Hegel wrote this as a natural reaction to the events he saw which was the French Revolution.
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:05 pm
Contra mundus And I propose all forms of Anarchy that were tried adn crushed brutally be renamed or scrapped altogether! That's two down I know of. Dis! Although I kinda do like Syndicalism to be honest... sad Bah, but I don't know of any Anarchists ideologies that ge hijacked by individuals at some point in the process and have the idea named after them! That least they try to sound like collectivist too! The only one I can think of is Murray Brookchin is kind of flirted with... even though he's really just a weird Marxist.
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:12 pm
Demon Kagerou Contra mundus And I propose all forms of Anarchy that were tried adn crushed brutally be renamed or scrapped altogether! That's two down I know of. Dis! Although I kinda do like Syndicalism to be honest... sad Bah, but I don't know of any Anarchists ideologies that ge hijacked by individuals at some point in the process and have the idea named after them! That least they try to sound like collectivist too! The only one I can think of is Murray Brookchin is kind of flirted with... even though he's really just a weird Marxist. What about those wierd Anarcho-Maoists?
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:15 pm
Contra mundus Merely a Shade Contra mundus Merely a Shade Contra mundus Out of the pair many just look at Marx, why I don't know, they also consider Marx a better theorist, I don't though. It's pretty obvious that if Engels wasn't around Marx as we know him would not exist. Anyways Capital Vol. 4 kinda exists...it came out as History of Surplus Labour or soemthing from Kautsky. I haven't read though since I'm still on chapter 1 of Capital Vol. 1. And I propose all forms of Anarchy that were tried adn crushed brutally be renamed or scrapped altogether! That's two down I know of. Dis! Although I kinda do like Syndicalism to be honest... sad In terms of personality and philosophy, Engels was more of a dialectic-materialist, whereas Marx was more of a historical-materialist. The two go hand in hand though, and they were often co-authors. Its a pity really that Engels doesn't get more credit, although even I myself tend to not read enough of his writings. I don't know about that since I thin kthe German Ideology was a product of Marx's, but one must consider two things. One, Marx was a student of Hegel in the begining, in his youth he was more of a Dialectical-Spiritualist. It took him quite a while to slowly move over to Dialectics. Second Engels was a Communist long before Marx was. In any case...Dialectical Materialist is really different from Historical-Materialist? Only slightly different, and the two complement each other. Historical-materialism is the methodology of the application dialectics and empiricism to history. Dialectic materialism, as I understand it, is slightly more philosophical in nature, and it is the concept of dialectics (thesis + antithesis = synthesis) applied to the material world, which is also differentiated from Hegel's use of dialectics with reference to God. He uses that though....I'm pretty sure that's what Hegel used too. From what little I read of Hegel...it's the application of dialectics and God to History. The world changes because it's the way God wishes it to change and evolve. Hegel wrote this as a natural reaction to the events he saw which was the French Revolution. What Marx does to Hegel's dialectics has often been referred to as "putting it on its feet." He applies it to the material world instead of the spiritual one. Part of it is idea that what is real is rational, and what is rational is real. Hegel's dialectics focused on the progression of ideas over time, and he attributed to ideas a certain life of their own. Marxist thought on the other hand holds that ideas come from the material circumstances of their day, and that they cannot be separated from the environment of the person who creates them.
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