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WOAH WOAH WOAH. WHAT? I love Pan's Labyrinth. It's a beautiful movie. AT NO POINT do they say that the General is athiestic.

I find this statement hurtful and offensive. I absolutely do not believe in an ultimate power, afterlife, spiritual manifestations, or anything similar. And yet, I'm pro-life. I love humanity. I'd do anything for my fellow man. Why? Because I know it's right. I know that humanity is a beautiful thing that has overcome many trials to become what it is today. Evolutionary science just reinforces my love and admiration for humanity. I'm studying to be an entomologist just so I can learn to protect the "lowly" creatures and educate my fellow man on their ways.

I can't even wrap my head around your idea that athiest = amoral. Why do I have to think a god exists just to want to protect and serve all life? Simply by existing it lets me know why it has to be protected. I don't steal, lie, cheat, or act on my harmful base urges because I don't want to hurt anything. Finito.

I want athiests to live in harmony with the religious. I don't want to eradicate religion or ridicule the faithful. As long as it makes them happy, why should I hate it? Yes, I am a secular humanist. Yes, I do think that religion shouldn't be taught in schools. However, if any children I have one day wish to be religious I won't care. I'll let them persue what makes them happy.

I haven't been able to visit this guild in months, but I remember you and thought you were an intelligent and even-minded person. I have to say that your athiests = amoral ideals kind of disappoint me.

Personally, I think it's far more morally bankrupt to do things that are right out of fear of a god or afterlife. Not saying anyone here does that, but really. It bothers me when the only reason people do good things is based out of that fear. I still think it's a big jump to say that without fear of god all life would spiral down into decadence and dystopia.

There are a lot of religions out there that practice their own tenents, but it's important to remember that every single one of them has to a degree acceptance of violence. Even though Christ is said to have preached peace, the Judeo-Christian faiths have had their share of institutionalized violence.

I understand that humans are humans and will find a reason to fight over any innocuous little thing, but the very idea that some people out there think we're not capable of setting our own reasonable guidlines is silly. There have been athiestic governments in ancient times as well as phases of religious abandonment and not one of them disassembled into anarchy.

Yes, but I'd greatly prefer people act on what they think is right out of the pure motive of helpfulness and care. It never ceases to annoy and amaze me when people react like "You don't believe in god? Why, you're capable of anything!". It's just utterly nonsensical to me. You can talk about loopholes, forcing, and relative morality all you like but human society has only come this far because of an extremely empathetic brain structure.

Hence, all of us are deeply and naturally ingrained with an understanding of what works and what doesn't. We couldn't have society at this level if we were not so finely tuned to one another. Sure, some people ignore it. Others are mentally ill and don't think the same way we do. However, I'm just annoyed that people can't just accept this and have to say that without religion it's impossible. It's scientifically unsound.

i think there's a grave misunderstanding of Christianity in your statement.

For one thing, not everything done 'in the name of Christianity' Was truly Christian in nature. People who bomb abortion clinics in the name of God are a perfect example. They have NO Biblical grounds to stand on what so ever when it comes to their actions, yet they claim to be doing the will of God.

I have no idea what god they are talking about, but clearly it's not the God of Christianity, or the Bible.

Second, Christians should have a healthy respect, or fear, of God, but that's NEVER given as a motivation for doing what's right. Over and over again Scripture states that we should do what we do out of love for God and love for others. If motives are in question, while fear may keep some people in line, that's the the message of the Bible, it's love that should be the true motive.

While reading this, there was a fly of sorts buzzing around my computer. Without thinking, I attempted to squish it, then a little voice in my head said "No, Zinny, you know that's wrong."

Anyone who thinks atheism = less moral and forthright can remember that one.

Anyways:



I don't see much difference between forcing morals that a human set and forcing morals that a god set. Though the god could arguably deal out harsher punishment for disobeying. But it's one thing to deal with the "golden rule," which is based partly in logic, and another to say "do this or a god, who we can't prove actually exists, will punish you." The problem with claiming that a god says "this is the way it is" is that the belief that this god is even real in the first place, let alone "said' such a thing, is based purely on blind faith. No evidence whatsoever, so where's the evidence that there's a punishment for disobeying, or that you're doing the right thing? Maybe a supreme being said "thou shalt kill, rape, steal, bear false witness and barbecue kittens alive"--there's no proof that one didn't.

One tenet of secular humanist ethics is that humans, and animals in general, are naturally rather peaceful, and prefer positive cooperation to violent anarchy. Those who don't are mentally ill. Atheists, including LaVeyan Satanists, other pagans and those with similar beliefs are no more likely to be violent or selfish than the general population. You have violent religious people, like terrorists who attack Israeli nightclubs and gyno clinics, and it always amazes me to see gang members with tattoos of bible verses and crosses. Clearly, people will do what they will, be it consciously or through a twisted interpretation of a theology.

Well, I see what you mean. Christianity seems so large and ever-expanding though that there are probably a lot of grey areas. It's been argued that Jesus himself wasn't claiming divinity so much as absolute love of the Judaic god as well as one another. There are entire books written on this idea. Really though, I see that as a Christian this idea doesn't really apply.

My point (that I am meanderingly slowly to) is that each subset of Christianity is different. My boyfriend's a Roman Catholic and my mother's a Lutheran and the two of them disagree on a lot of things. Just as I'm not entirely qualified to make calls on all of Christianity, even the basic idea that God is a loving versus abusive father seems to be in conflict.

What I consider "real" Christians (and again, I'm not an authority and don't claim to be) are people who uphold the teachings of their god and preach to convert, but do so in loving and non-judgemental manner. I base this on Jesus' preaching to EVERYONE, even the prostitutes and theives, and loving all equally. He may have preached, but it wasn't out of agression or hate of difference. It was to save.

P.S.: Yesss, an obnoxious preachy athiest is dating a Christian razz Really, neither of us cares and besides that our ideas are in complete agreement. We discuss it sometimes but it isn't an issue. I know he's a smart guy, and I'm willing to admit that having no real answer I'm not going to take a stand and say which one of us is wrong (or both). It'll be proven in the end.

^^^

YIKES.

I understand your vehemence--living outside of religion looking in, stuff seems far more dire than it possibly is. However, not all religious folk are quite like that. Basically, please be careful what you say: religious people won't like us any more if we insult them all. We have enough trouble fighting for rights as is.

Athiests, homosexuals, minorities, and people of non-Judeo-Christian faiths are having a rough time right now. It's easy to end up hating the ones in charge. Remember though: it's ******** up enough as it is. Fighting wins rights, but arguing with logic and calm wins support.

i wish the people of the religions could pull it together and realize that they are the same religion.

i'm sure that islam=christianity=judaism, and have some small evidence that polytheism could fit there as well