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 Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:34 am
linaloki Toga! Toga! linaloki Toga! Toga! linaloki Merc Pip Bernadotte Hello Toga! ^^
Well, I'm pro-choice until the third trimester, Bodily Domain and all that. ^^ Me too, third term, and please don't do it 7 TIMES IN A ROW WITHOUT EVER BUYING PROTECTION. Ahem. I don't like that either, but I also don't like the idea of stopping such women or poking around their personal life. However, abortion or childbirth, the body can only take so much of either. I guess it's partially part of my upbringing, or the fact that that's a lot of once potential lives... So many times without spending a couple of bucks on condoms just pisses me off. No clue why. But, it's not like I can stop it. Just a moral tic I have. Hey, I feel the same. Yeah. I'm pro-choice with personal issues against it. I tried to claim neuterality the first time I went into the Abortion thread a year or two ago... And they pointed out that, by being neuteral, I was, infact, pro. >.< The only issue I have with abortion is that it kills. I don't think that should interfere with the right to abort, though, until science develops a way to incubate fetii outside of a womb without killing them. But then I hit a rough spot like in 3rd trt abortions, because I know there are people who are against reproduction and adopting out. It gets complicated.
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:50 pm
BlueCollarJoe Toga! Toga! BlueCollarJoe Pro-choice but was my vote. I have some restrictions on them, and they are pretty simple. Fair enough, but I disagree with the idea of placing restrictions on such an action. We don't place restrictions on refusal to donate other organs, do we? An organ isn't an entire being. This is a standard reply, and a strawman at it's most basic point. At this point, let's stick to the issue of abortion, and not try to haze it with inadequate comparisons. In the case of a pregnancy, the woman is surrendering her uterus to the baby wanted or not. I'd consider that a forced donation if abortion was made illegal. Quote: Quote: Quote: Rape? I don't like abortion. Personal opinion, unless it is life threatening, no abortions. Period. Aslong as you keep that a personal opinion, I can respect that. However, it should be noted that every pregnancy carries a potential health/life risk. What they are. Oh, if they ever put it on a ballot, I am pretty certain you can figure out how I'll vote on it. Every thing we do on a daily basis carries a potential heath/life risk. Once again, this is a strawman article. If a woman is having serious emotional issues with being pregnant and it is quite evident that is the case that she is completely paranoid, I could understand that. However, this is a line that doesn't hold much water in reality. Obstetricians are damned good at what they do. They can make a major impact, and with proper care, the vast majority of pregnancies are normal. In all my years, I've never once heard a woman say she was getting an abortion because she was terrified she was going to die. It is almost always because she doesn't want a child. All of those dangerous actions carry the choices to make them. Quote: Quote: Quote: However, it is legal. I also feel that the issue of abortion has been twisted to becoming an 'oops' method of birth control. Too drunk to use protection, 'oops'. Time to suck the little b*****d out. Abortion is the only true method of birth control, as it controls birth. Besides, those people that you mention are fewer than you think thanks to the exaggeration of anti-abortion/pro-life protestors. I wouldn't want to force such a woman to care for a child anyway for that child's sake. God knows what harm could come to that child during gestation and childhood due to ignorance, apathy, or plain ol' hatred. No, it doesn't control birth, it terminates pregnancy. That is a difference. Nowhere did I state that there was a line around the corner seeking abortions, looking like Starbucks in the morning. And I have always been of the mind, and still am, that everyone deserves a chance at life. The 'but it was so much better for me to kill the little ********' isn't an argument that I give much credence to. It controls birth by allowing the woman to have control over whether or not she gives birth. That's what I meant. I do believe people should have a chance at life, but not at the expense of another's human rights. "It was so much better to kill," doesn't reflect that and I do not give it a lot of credit either. Quote: Quote: Quote: Fetus is a nice term that is now used. It is so much nicer to say that rather than admit to the fact that it is a baby. Using a scientific term to hide the issue behind neutral words is how I view that. I hope that was sarcasm, it's hard to tell. Every time my wife has been pregnant, during the pregnancy, we have never referred to the baby as a fetus. Never will, either. This is a case of semantics. You say tomato, I say tomato. Don't poke at my use of fetus and I won't poke at your use of baby. Quote: Quote: Quote: HOWEVER, my main issue with abortion now? Look, it is legal. That is what the law says, so I live with it. However, the fable of bodily domain loses with me. Why? Because how is it that the woman gets to decide whether she becomes a parent or not, yet, the man has absolutely no choice in the matter either way? Equal rights my a**. Guess you guys found your opposition. But probably not in the way you thought. How exactly would you like to change that? Allow him to have control over her body? You can't have a democratic vote when there are two (conscious) parties involved. One has to have a final say in the event of a stalemate. Which one should that be? Obviously, you cannot force the woman to have the baby if she doesn't want to. Bodily domain and all that, right? But, at the same time, the man should have the legal right to decide if he wants to be a parent or not. If he doesn't, then he should have no financial obligation, beyond providing half the fee necessary for an abortion. The full fee if she wants to have the child. He will not have visiting rights, nor any parental rights whatsoever if he chooses to opt out, but he should have every bit as much right as she does on whether or not he becomes a parent. And, husbands should be notified if their wife gets an abortion. He has just as much right to know about the pregnancy as she does to know he gets a vasectomy. I actually agree with all of this.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:03 am
GAH! Sorry Bluecollar, I hit the wrong button before typing out that post.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:37 am
Toga! Toga! GAH! Sorry Bluecollar, I hit the wrong button before typing out that post. Gah!! My whole post has been edited. Oh well. I still get the points you were making. Quote: In the case of a pregnancy, the woman is surrendering her uterus to the baby wanted or not. I'd consider that a forced donation if abortion was made illegal. This is the main point where people run in circles. Let's just leave this horse to die peacefully, as it is, to me, entirely different topics. Quote: All of those dangerous actions carry the choices to make them. Only with abortion is there such a thing as a 'get out of my mistake free' card. And most women I know who have had an abortion eventually regret it. Even the original Roe vs. Wade has issues now. Quote: It controls birth by allowing the woman to have control over whether or not she gives birth. That's what I meant. I do believe people should have a chance at life, but not at the expense of another's human rights. "It was so much better to kill," doesn't reflect that and I do not give it a lot of credit either. No, it terminates. At this point is where a lot of pro-choicers and I really have issues. You see, birth control is anything that stops fertilization from occurring. Abortion is the act of killing the unborn. Big difference at this point. If you shot someone on accident, and they needed your help for a few months to live, would you feel obligated? Same basic premise. You are the reason this life exists. It didn't ask to be, it just happened. Quote: Don't poke at my use of fetus and I won't poke at your use of baby. I am not embarrassed about using the word baby. Have fun. I'll return the favor. Using the word 'fetus' is like calling every person walking around in the world an escaped fetus. Try it. Go up to a woman pushing a baby carriage and say 'awww....look at the cute fetus that survived..." I'd be interested to know how that turns out. Quote: I actually agree with all of this. Happy dance time then. Most people fight over that issue.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:29 am
(Right button this time!) BlueCollarJoe Quote: In the case of a pregnancy, the woman is surrendering her uterus to the baby wanted or not. I'd consider that a forced donation if abortion was made illegal. This is the main point where people run in circles. Let's just leave this horse to die peacefully, as it is, to me, entirely different topics. I don't follow, but okay. Quote: Quote: All of those dangerous actions carry the choices to make them. Only with abortion is there such a thing as a 'get out of my mistake free' card. And most women I know who have had an abortion eventually regret it. Even the original Roe vs. Wade has issues now. What I meant was that we all have the choice to make decisions in life that are potentially life-threatening. Plus there are plenty of situations in life that could be considered a "get out of a mistake free" card, most dealing with modern medicine. I've heard a lot of testimonials from women who have had abortions and did not regret it. I don't really like to say it, but those women you know probably had some negative feeling about an abortion beforehand. That is the best indicator of how you'll feel about it afterward. Quote: Quote: It controls birth by allowing the woman to have control over whether or not she gives birth. That's what I meant. I do believe people should have a chance at life, but not at the expense of another's human rights. "It was so much better to kill," doesn't reflect that and I do not give it a lot of credit either. No, it terminates. At this point is where a lot of pro-choicers and I really have issues. You see, birth control is anything that stops fertilization from occurring. Abortion is the act of killing the unborn. Big difference at this point. In this instance I am using the literal definition of birth control, as in somethign that controls birth. I consider what you described above to be contraception. Big difference. Quote: If you shot someone on accident, and they needed your help for a few months to live, would you feel obligated? Same basic premise. You are the reason this life exists. It didn't ask to be, it just happened. I probably would, but nobody's obligated to strap me down and take some of my blood for his benefit. Quote: Quote: Don't poke at my use of fetus and I won't poke at your use of baby. I am not embarrassed about using the word baby. Have fun. I'll return the favor. Using the word 'fetus' is like calling every person walking around in the world an escaped fetus. Try it. Go up to a woman pushing a baby carriage and say 'awww....look at the cute fetus that survived..." I'd be interested to know how that turns out. Bad emotional ploy. Quote: Quote: I actually agree with all of this. Happy dance time then. Most people fight over that issue. Remember the threads on such a subject that occasionally popped up in the ED? razz
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Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:59 am
Toga! Toga! (Right button this time!) BlueCollarJoe Quote: In the case of a pregnancy, the woman is surrendering her uterus to the baby wanted or not. I'd consider that a forced donation if abortion was made illegal. This is the main point where people run in circles. Let's just leave this horse to die peacefully, as it is, to me, entirely different topics. I don't follow, but okay. What I mean is that bodily domain is screamed at this point normally. There is never any mention of what caused this to happen. It seems that the tooth fairy has a cousin, named the fertilization fairy, and it runs around impregnating innocent women while they are asleep. Toga! Toga! (Right button this time!) BlueCollarJoe Quote: Quote: Quote: All of those dangerous actions carry the choices to make them. Only with abortion is there such a thing as a 'get out of my mistake free' card. And most women I know who have had an abortion eventually regret it. Even the original Roe vs. Wade has issues now. What I meant was that we all have the choice to make decisions in life that are potentially life-threatening. Plus there are plenty of situations in life that could be considered a "get out of a mistake free" card, most dealing with modern medicine. I've heard a lot of testimonials from women who have had abortions and did not regret it. I don't really like to say it, but those women you know probably had some negative feeling about an abortion beforehand. That is the best indicator of how you'll feel about it afterward. The point being made with abortion is that it is the one way where a voluntary action results in something that only a retarded, lobotomized monkey would ever be surprised over, pregnancy. And then the hue and cry of 'I didn't expect this' comes up. Abortion has now become an item of convenience, and I think the maddest I ever got over this issue was when they were trying to make the taxpayers pick up the burden for them. I'm more than willing to see my taxes go up for forced sterilizations, but not for abortions. And the human rights issue always comes into play. I'll go into that more later. Didn't mean to make it sound like the women were sobbing uncontrollably and on massive anti-depressants, Toga. Merely that most of those that I know of, all over the age of fourty, have regretted it to varying degrees. Toga! Toga! (Right button this time!) BlueCollarJoe Quote: Quote: Quote: It controls birth by allowing the woman to have control over whether or not she gives birth. That's what I meant. I do believe people should have a chance at life, but not at the expense of another's human rights. "It was so much better to kill," doesn't reflect that and I do not give it a lot of credit either. No, it terminates. At this point is where a lot of pro-choicers and I really have issues. You see, birth control is anything that stops fertilization from occurring. Abortion is the act of killing the unborn. Big difference at this point. In this instance I am using the literal definition of birth control, as in somethign that controls birth. I consider what you described above to be contraception. Big difference. Quote: If you shot someone on accident, and they needed your help for a few months to live, would you feel obligated? Same basic premise. You are the reason this life exists. It didn't ask to be, it just happened. I probably would, but nobody's obligated to strap me down and take some of my blood for his benefit. Once again, the definition is different. Abortion is not preventing a pregnancy. It is terminating it. Birth control is contraceptives, not termination methods. Toga! Toga! (Right button this time!) BlueCollarJoe Quote: Quote: Quote: Don't poke at my use of fetus and I won't poke at your use of baby. I am not embarrassed about using the word baby. Have fun. I'll return the favor. Using the word 'fetus' is like calling every person walking around in the world an escaped fetus. Try it. Go up to a woman pushing a baby carriage and say 'awww....look at the cute fetus that survived..." I'd be interested to know how that turns out. Bad emotional ploy. It is the same thing either way. It is not a word play, it is a word play, and that is the point that I am making. Changing a word for a political/personal advantage doesn't change what you are dealing with, merely the way that one addresses it. This is one of the main tools of both organizations, and all in the world, to attempt to get people to agree with their ploys, by simply using different words. I simply won't do that. I'll call it what it is, and leave it at that. I didn't start the emotional ploy, Toga, but I am more than willing to stop it. Toga! Toga! (Right button this time!) BlueCollarJoe Quote: Quote: Quote: I actually agree with all of this. Happy dance time then. Most people fight over that issue. Remember the threads on such a subject that occasionally popped up in the ED? razz I am fairly familiar with your attitudes, and respect your debating skills, otherwise I wouldn't be here at this point and time. Feels good to actually have a debate with someone that can see both sides, and still carry on a mature, and rational, debate.
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Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:34 am
BlueCollarJoe What I mean is that bodily domain is screamed at this point normally. There is never any mention of what caused this to happen. It seems that the tooth fairy has a cousin, named the fertilization fairy, and it runs around impregnating innocent women while they are asleep. "Fault" means little. Even convicted felons aren't strapped down to give blood to their dying victims. BlueCollarJoe The point being made with abortion is that it is the one way where a voluntary action results in something that only a retarded, lobotomized monkey would ever be surprised over, pregnancy. See above. Quote: And then the hue and cry of 'I didn't expect this' comes up. Abortion has now become an item of convenience, I wouldn't exatly write it off as a mere "convenience." Quote: and I think the maddest I ever got over this issue was when they were trying to make the taxpayers pick up the burden for them. I'm more than willing to see my taxes go up for forced sterilizations, but not for abortions. I can understand this. Quote: Didn't mean to make it sound like the women were sobbing uncontrollably and on massive anti-depressants, Toga. Merely that most of those that I know of, all over the age of fourty, have regretted it to varying degrees. I know, and I didn't mean to imply that they were. Quote: It is the same thing either way. It is not a word play, it is a word play, and that is the point that I am making. Changing a word for a political/personal advantage doesn't change what you are dealing with, merely the way that one addresses it. This is one of the main tools of both organizations, and all in the world, to attempt to get people to agree with their ploys, by simply using different words. I simply won't do that. I'll call it what it is, and leave it at that. I didn't start the emotional ploy, Toga, but I am more than willing to stop it. Perfectly fine, but don't start with me. Quote: I am fairly familiar with your attitudes, and respect your debating skills, otherwise I wouldn't be here at this point and time. Feels good to actually have a debate with someone that can see both sides, and still carry on a mature, and rational, debate. Likewise smile
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:22 pm
kp606 My opinion on this is slowly changing, unfortunately. I'd give reasoning but i'd be insulting about ninety-five percent of people on the planet in the process so i'll bite my tongue. You can't just say that! I am legitimately curious - what opinion can be so loathed? I would wager a guess and say "no abortions for any reason even if the woman will die." Why, before, did you hold the belief you used to hold? Why, now, has that changed? As for my personal opinion, it is a matter of rights. You have a right to use lethal force in self defense, even when you are facing a non-life threatening harm, but only where no other alternatives exist. You may kill a rapist who only wishes you bodily ills, or a torturer who only wishes you bodily ills, a mentally ill rapist who knows not what he does (and as such has no mal intent)... all of them for committing far lesser crimes than an unwanted fetus. 10 minutes or 10 hours is nothing compared to nearly 10 months of invasion. The fetus, even if it were a perfectly innocent person with no intentions, still has no right to use your body (while causing extreme changes) any more than anyone else has such a right. As such you may use lethal force to defend yourself. Until a method of removal exists where the fetus will survive, lethal force may be employed.
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:27 pm
BlueCollarJoe Only with abortion is there such a thing as a 'get out of my mistake free' card. And most women I know who have had an abortion eventually regret it. Even the original Roe vs. Wade has issues now. www.imnotsorry.net BlueCollarJoe No, it terminates. At this point is where a lot of pro-choicers and I really have issues. You see, birth control is anything that stops fertilization from occurring. Abortion is the act of killing the unborn. Big difference at this point. And the fact of the matter is "birth control" literally means to prevent or control birth. Contraception means to prevent fertilization or implantation. BlueCollarJoe If you shot someone on accident, and they needed your help for a few months to live, would you feel obligated? Same basic premise. You are the reason this life exists. It didn't ask to be, it just happened. Nope, I wouldn't feel obligated at all. I get into a car accident; a man is put into the hospital because of it. Is it my fault he was there? No. Am I obligated, legally or morally, to sacrifice a significant amount of my time, money, or health for him? No. BlueCollarJoe I am not embarrassed about using the word baby. Have fun. I'll return the favor. Using the word 'fetus' is like calling every person walking around in the world an escaped fetus. Try it. Go up to a woman pushing a baby carriage and say 'awww....look at the cute fetus that survived..." I'd be interested to know how that turns out. Non-sequitor. Fetii are human offspring that are unborn. Neonates are born human offspring between the ages of birth and 1 year. Calling a neonate a fetus is like calling a fetus a baby; you're incorrect if you do it, from a scientific point of view. And besides, I've said that to a person when they were talking about their "baby" and it was yet to be born. Just because the general public is insipid doesn't mean I have to pander to them.
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:41 am
Talon-chan kp606 My opinion on this is slowly changing, unfortunately. I'd give reasoning but i'd be insulting about ninety-five percent of people on the planet in the process so i'll bite my tongue. You can't just say that! I am legitimately curious - what opinion can be so loathed? I would wager a guess and say "no abortions for any reason even if the woman will die." Why, before, did you hold the belief you used to hold? Why, now, has that changed? As for my personal opinion, it is a matter of rights. You have a right to use lethal force in self defense, even when you are facing a non-life threatening harm, but only where no other alternatives exist. You may kill a rapist who only wishes you bodily ills, or a torturer who only wishes you bodily ills, a mentally ill rapist who knows not what he does (and as such has no mal intent)... all of them for committing far lesser crimes than an unwanted fetus. 10 minutes or 10 hours is nothing compared to nearly 10 months of invasion. The fetus, even if it were a perfectly innocent person with no intentions, still has no right to use your body (while causing extreme changes) any more than anyone else has such a right. As such you may use lethal force to defend yourself. Until a method of removal exists where the fetus will survive, lethal force may be employed. Well... I just am beginning to think different about the issues at hand, and the logic behind either side. I've always said that you lose no matter what side you are on but now I'm finally beginning to realize it and accept it for some very good reasons. I don't see pro-life as being applicable in many situations (most perhaps? I couldn't say for sure) but at the same time, to allow for abortion isn't something I will openly do. Speaking philosophically, it is a matter of picking your poison... Which brings me to my next point on Pro-choice... "Well you have Diabetes, type 1." "Okay what are my options?" Well, you really don't have options. You must inject or inhale insulin everyday, for as long as you live and attempt to balance out your insulin levels, or, you die (or live a very restricted life). I think being pro-choice is as much saying "If I have a failing kidney, i'm pro removing it to find a new one." I think, however, if we could avoid the situation entirely, we would. What has bothered, too, about abortion is that people will talk about volitive choice and having the freedom to live your life the way you want too. They will say well you never have to choose abortion, you can live your life and never have to deal with the issue and that's what makes someone pro-life. However, if they are living in a people-controlled country, such as a democracy or republic, isn't that just countering itself? Control yourself, but certainly don't control the higher body above you, because, we're telling you, in essence, controlling, we don't want that. I don't know. I really don't. I also think the issue has become far to hard to debate anymore because you can approach it from so many vantage points and if you make a statement from one vantage point, an opponent could say something from another, and even though it looks like they have countered you, they started talking about geometry when you were discussing biology (as an example). The point I was talking about originally was I was going to list a bunch of stereotypes, which at the time, I was finding oddly, and depressingly, true. sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:38 pm
BlueCollarJoe You see, birth control is anything that stops fertilization from occurring. Abortion is the act of killing the unborn. Big difference at this point. Birth control is anything that stops birth from occurring. Contraception stops fertilization. You are aware that over 2/3 of fertilized eggs fail to implant or are miscarried within the first trimester, correct? And that this number could be greatly reduced if women were prevented from standing up or showering up to three days after each time they have heterosexual unprotected sex, and if newly-pregnant women were prohibited from engaging in any strenuous activities? If you truly believe in preserving the "unborn," then you'd support a law mandating that women be shackled to their beds for three days each time they have sex, and that women be kept in small padded cells for the next three months, just in case they're pregnant. Or we can be sane.
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Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:15 am
kp606 Talon-chan kp606 My opinion on this is slowly changing, unfortunately. I'd give reasoning but i'd be insulting about ninety-five percent of people on the planet in the process so i'll bite my tongue. You can't just say that! I am legitimately curious - what opinion can be so loathed? I would wager a guess and say "no abortions for any reason even if the woman will die." Why, before, did you hold the belief you used to hold? Why, now, has that changed? As for my personal opinion, it is a matter of rights. You have a right to use lethal force in self defense, even when you are facing a non-life threatening harm, but only where no other alternatives exist. You may kill a rapist who only wishes you bodily ills, or a torturer who only wishes you bodily ills, a mentally ill rapist who knows not what he does (and as such has no mal intent)... all of them for committing far lesser crimes than an unwanted fetus. 10 minutes or 10 hours is nothing compared to nearly 10 months of invasion. The fetus, even if it were a perfectly innocent person with no intentions, still has no right to use your body (while causing extreme changes) any more than anyone else has such a right. As such you may use lethal force to defend yourself. Until a method of removal exists where the fetus will survive, lethal force may be employed. Well... I just am beginning to think different about the issues at hand, and the logic behind either side. I've always said that you lose no matter what side you are on but now I'm finally beginning to realize it and accept it for some very good reasons. I don't see pro-life as being applicable in many situations (most perhaps? I couldn't say for sure) but at the same time, to allow for abortion isn't something I will openly do. Speaking philosophically, it is a matter of picking your poison... Which brings me to my next point on Pro-choice... "Well you have Diabetes, type 1." "Okay what are my options?" Well, you really don't have options. You must inject or inhale insulin everyday, for as long as you live and attempt to balance out your insulin levels, or, you die (or live a very restricted life). I think being pro-choice is as much saying "If I have a failing kidney, i'm pro removing it to find a new one." I think, however, if we could avoid the situation entirely, we would. What has bothered, too, about abortion is that people will talk about volitive choice and having the freedom to live your life the way you want too. They will say well you never have to choose abortion, you can live your life and never have to deal with the issue and that's what makes someone pro-life. However, if they are living in a people-controlled country, such as a democracy or republic, isn't that just countering itself? Control yourself, but certainly don't control the higher body above you, because, we're telling you, in essence, controlling, we don't want that. I don't know. I really don't. I also think the issue has become far to hard to debate anymore because you can approach it from so many vantage points and if you make a statement from one vantage point, an opponent could say something from another, and even though it looks like they have countered you, they started talking about geometry when you were discussing biology (as an example). The point I was talking about originally was I was going to list a bunch of stereotypes, which at the time, I was finding oddly, and depressingly, true. sweatdrop I've changed slightly as well. One of the issues that is hard for me to support while being pro-life is stem cell research. I see all the promising advancements in fetal stem cells. Being pro-life makes me a hypocrite for supporting fetal stem cell research gonk
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Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:21 am
My Conscience I've changed slightly as well. One of the issues that is hard for me to support while being pro-life is stem cell research. I see all the promising advancements in fetal stem cells. Being pro-life makes me a hypocrite for supporting fetal stem cell research gonk Being pro-life makes you a hypocrite in and of itself. The "stem cell research" issue non-withstanding.
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Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:18 am
My Conscience I've changed slightly as well. One of the issues that is hard for me to support while being pro-life is stem cell research. I see all the promising advancements in fetal stem cells. Being pro-life makes me a hypocrite for supporting fetal stem cell research gonk Well it's either giving them some use that can do great good to mankind, or let them be thrown away, wasted. I'm sure that being pro-life, you don't support that too, do you?
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