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 Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:17 am
About the War/Nin vs. War/Mnk.
War/Mnk has more tools than listed.
Monk gives Counter as mentioned. Boost, Focus and Dodge (All of which add hate when used in battle) and HP boosts. And on the high end Chakra.
Now they both have their uses.
Put them both at 25 in Kazham. As a solo tank, mandies would absolutely rip through shadows rendering them useless in a few rounds. Where a /mnk would true take damage but while /nin is casting utsemi over and over to keep shadows up the /monk will be dealing constant hate keeping damage as well as countering, not only keeping head but dishing out a healthy ammount of damage. More damage = Faster Kills = Less damage a mob can do in a fight = Less MP wasted healing = Less down time.
Now Fastforward to Crawler's Nest you've graduated from the grubs and wanna take on some doom scorpions. Well scorpions have NASTY AoE attacks, if a whm doesn't keep a war/mnk at near perfect hp they can get one shotted in a heart beat. So where a whm would let the hp fall into the orange with little worry they waste more mp just incase that uber ws lands. And the scorpion's harder heavier hits do tons more damage than a mandy and are a bit slower minuse the occassion double attack. This is where /nin excels. Those uber ws's aren't so uber any more when all they hit are shadows. Whm doesn't have to worry as much and can conserve mp for more battles. The slower heavier hits are easy to time and keep up shadows.
So they both have their merits. But /mnk is more the universal tank sub. /nin is more situational. Now if you get war/nin and a nin/war or another war/nin together can make for a very bored healer.
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:19 am
About the War/Nin vs. War/Mnk.
War/Mnk has more tools than listed.
Monk gives Counter as mentioned. Boost, Focus and Dodge (All of which add hate when used in battle) and HP boosts. And on the high end Chakra.
Now they both have their uses.
Put them both at 25 in Kazham. As a solo tank, mandies would absolutely rip through shadows rendering them useless in a few rounds. Where a /mnk would true take damage but while /nin is casting utsemi over and over to keep shadows up the /monk will be dealing constant hate keeping damage as well as countering, not only keeping head but dishing out a healthy ammount of damage. More damage = Faster Kills = Less damage a mob can do in a fight = Less MP wasted healing = Less down time.
Now Fastforward to Crawler's Nest you've graduated from the grubs and wanna take on some doom scorpions. Well scorpions have NASTY AoE attacks, if a whm doesn't keep a war/mnk at near perfect hp they can get one shotted in a heart beat. So where a whm would let the hp fall into the orange with little worry they waste more mp just incase that uber ws lands. And the scorpion's harder heavier hits do tons more damage than a mandy and are a bit slower minuse the occassion double attack. This is where /nin excels. Those uber ws's aren't so uber any more when all they hit are shadows. Whm doesn't have to worry as much and can conserve mp for more battles. The slower heavier hits are easy to time and keep up shadows.
So they both have their merits. But /mnk is more the universal tank sub. /nin is more situational. Now if you get war/nin and a nin/war or another war/nin together can make for a very bored healer.
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:10 pm
First of all, let me state the insignificance on Early Mandys to this topic. You level on them for a fairly short period of time in the low levels. Not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.
Number two, why would anyone EXP on a scorpion? Never have I ever heard of EXPing on scorps before on my server...
Once again, when tanking, you aren't fighting for hate if you have a decent damage out put with SOME resources at your disposal. Provoking often gets you that extra UMPH that you need. Heck, I was in a PT of NIN/WAR, 2 WAR/NIN using Rampage constantly, a DRG/SAM, a RDM and a BLM. The NIN had no other tools with him except Shihei, yet he could still keep up in hate with the WARs DRG and the BLM.
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:31 pm
Well mandies are just an example. Nin tanks are less effective against mobs that have a low delay attacks (usually low dmg) attacks but shine against high delay high damage attacks.
Another example in ballista.
War/Nin vs Monk (not so fun)
War/Nin vs Drk (lots of fun)
As for leveling on scorpions. I used to lvl on them when I was a monk in crawlers nest and yes not alot of people exp on them. Which is EXACTLY why I chose to put parties together to fight them. Good exp, good drops, and you have them all to yourselves. Most of the time though we had either a Paladin or a Nin. Or if we had alot of mages I would tank as a monk war. I had enough hp to not get one shotted but keeping my hp up was a full time job, but yeah three four mages behind him curing not hard to keep hp up and monks keep hate great when that want to.
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Posted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:48 pm
Oh forgot to add one more thing. Extra hate is NOT useless.
Most damage dealing jobs both mage and melee alike have a HIGH damage potential. But they can only do so much damage before the mob turns on them and well does nasty nasty things. This leads to whm needing to cure more than needed and possibly getting hate themselves and that's alot of wasted mp.
We've all been there, in a pt with that taru blm that wants to flex their magical power and cast relentlessly spell after spell from their massive mp pool. You know how fast that can mess up a party.
Anyways. The more hate a tank has the more damage a group can do. War/mnk with all their tools in keeping hate helps the party out immensely. Rng's can let a few more arrows fly, blm's can burn out a feww more spells, monks don't have to sweat when letting their fist fly...and well you get the point. EVERYONE in the group can do more without fear of getting hate because its so solidly established. Now a blm won't be going all out and what not, but vs. War/nin a party can do more offensively with a tank you can keep hate when the other members flex their stuff a little.
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 5:49 am
Ok being a rdm and all im going to say somthing.
1. No i can't melee, if im not buffed
2. My sword skill sucks (124) and im 54
3. I was hitting Robber crabs lastnight for 15-30 samage last night.
Why? Because i was well buffed, and I only needed to Ref two people.
Oh And i dont have My Af 3 so :/ I was useing Crimson Blade too I cant get WW's need one more lev crying . I wasnt hiting every time but no one ready does. I would ref, haste the mnk, de-buff, then attack. I would get 10-15 hits in and I SCed some time. On top I was /blm so lower melee power.
---
As for the rest.
War/mnk vs war/nin
To tell you I like War/mnk more up untill ~50. Or untill nin get NI (36 ?)
I think war's should level Both Mnk and Nin so be ready to sub the right job for the right mob.
--
Whm/blm vs whm/smn
Lower Levels whm/blm is a bit better, the lack of hate controll the tanks have whm/smn's hp is far too low 2-3 hits and your done.
+50 Whm/smn's are better in ways, Auto Ref but thats 1/3 mp/sec of what a rdm can get you. The Ga smn buffs are cool but isnt that what the smn is for? You do get more mp but you will need to not use avatars to keep most of it.
About the Whm/blm +50
You do got warp but as you said blm can dd2 you and most will. The Drain/apair is more for pling for whms, even with /blm Dark magic wont be too high. And blm magic ? Why do you need that, why in the hell would you like more hate.
So on the WHM thing im with you.
----
Blm
Their AF does look cool, but as you said not much to int, but most AF has usless + stats.(War + int lol or Whm +str)
-----
Mnk
The DOT and speed thing. Most mnks i run into in pts have their best Belts and Their +3% haste Fumas. I haste mnks right away on top of it and cast Gravity.
----
Drg
A drg with good gear can hit with /war, Besk and doulbe hit later on help too. I used to see /sam all the time but I havent in a long time, I see /thf more.
----
About the exp on Scrops. I was doing this ~43 in Altpa. We would build chain on Beetles then Kill a scrop on chain 4-5. It was great exp, but we had a Nin/war tank and two rng/nin's so the scrop would miss this crazy damage attack. We had a rng/war >.< one time , he got hit for ~800 hp so yeah, nin's are needed or this pt set up
Nin/war ,rng/nin, thf/nin, blm/whm, whm/smn, Rdm/blm(you better be blm)
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 12:57 pm
Lyes Oh forgot to add one more thing. Extra hate is NOT useless. Most damage dealing jobs both mage and melee alike have a HIGH damage potential. But they can only do so much damage before the mob turns on them and well does nasty nasty things. This leads to whm needing to cure more than needed and possibly getting hate themselves and that's alot of wasted mp. We've all been there, in a pt with that taru blm that wants to flex their magical power and cast relentlessly spell after spell from their massive mp pool. You know how fast that can mess up a party. Anyways. The more hate a tank has the more damage a group can do. War/mnk with all their tools in keeping hate helps the party out immensely. Rng's can let a few more arrows fly, blm's can burn out a feww more spells, monks don't have to sweat when letting their fist fly...and well you get the point. EVERYONE in the group can do more without fear of getting hate because its so solidly established. Now a blm won't be going all out and what not, but vs. War/nin a party can do more offensively with a tank you can keep hate when the other members flex their stuff a little. But there is a fine line where there is too much, and from what you say, you are starting to push that line. If a tank is in trouble, for whatever reason, there should be a backup "Provoker" that can spare a hit or two for an emergancy Cure. I would rather have a tank that takes less DMG or no DMG than a high def and high-hate-gain one. If hate is a problem, you could always bring in the THF for some buffer.
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:07 pm
Moonlight Agony Ok being a rdm and all im going to say somthing. 1. No i can't melee, if im not buffed 2. My sword skill sucks (124) and im 54 3. I was hitting Robber crabs lastnight for 15-30 samage last night. Why? Because i was well buffed, and I only needed to Ref two people. Oh And i dont have My Af 3 so :/ I was useing Crimson Blade too I cant get WW's need one more lev crying . I wasnt hiting every time but no one ready does. I would ref, haste the mnk, de-buff, then attack. I would get 10-15 hits in and I SCed some time. On top I was /blm so lower melee power. --- As for the rest. War/mnk vs war/nin To tell you I like War/mnk more up untill ~50. Or untill nin get NI (36 ?) I think war's should level Both Mnk and Nin so be ready to sub the right job for the right mob. -- Whm/blm vs whm/smn Lower Levels whm/blm is a bit better, the lack of hate controll the tanks have whm/smn's hp is far too low 2-3 hits and your done. +50 Whm/smn's are better in ways, Auto Ref but thats 1/3 mp/sec of what a rdm can get you. The Ga smn buffs are cool but isnt that what the smn is for? You do get more mp but you will need to not use avatars to keep most of it. About the Whm/blm +50 You do got warp but as you said blm can dd2 you and most will. The Drain/apair is more for pling for whms, even with /blm Dark magic wont be too high. And blm magic ? Why do you need that, why in the hell would you like more hate. So on the WHM thing im with you. ---- Blm Their AF does look cool, but as you said not much to int, but most AF has usless + stats.(War + int lol or Whm +str) ----- Mnk The DOT and speed thing. Most mnks i run into in pts have their best Belts and Their +3% haste Fumas. I haste mnks right away on top of it and cast Gravity. ---- Drg A drg with good gear can hit with /war, Besk and doulbe hit later on help too. I used to see /sam all the time but I havent in a long time, I see /thf more. ---- About the exp on Scrops. I was doing this ~43 in Altpa. We would build chain on Beetles then Kill a scrop on chain 4-5. It was great exp, but we had a Nin/war tank and two rng/nin's so the scrop would miss this crazy damage attack. We had a rng/war >.< one time , he got hit for ~800 hp so yeah, nin's are needed or this pt set up Nin/war ,rng/nin, thf/nin, blm/whm, whm/smn, Rdm/blm(you better be blm) Note: I'm just commenting on what you say for the sake of discussion. I may or may not agree with you, however. WAR/NIN doesn't get Utsu until 74 WAR 37 NIN I believe >.< WHM/SMN doesn't have much less HP than /BLM... maybe 10 to 20. BLM has 2nd lowest HP and 2nd highest MP in the game. However the SMN once you get WHM to 20 gives an MP boost which (I'm not completely sure) affects in a Percentage, although I hear rumor that this was changed in a patch a long time ago. Someone please help clarify. BLM should have a full set of Elemental Staves for their hidden effect to boost up spells of that element. As for AF, WHM STR actually helps in ballista when they get hexa, but otherwise, you're right. (Why the hell do RDM get +CHR? *Sigh*) MNK I totally agree with the +&#xha;ste DRG, I feel DRG/SAM is the best way to go post-60 when you have some better equiptment choices and a DRG's stats become clearer where the weaknesses are. /WAR and /SAM are very close in stats as a subjob.
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Posted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:23 pm
on the WAR/MNK VS WAR/NIN
WAR/MNK past 25+ would be more tank then a WAR/NIN
because WAR/NIN has to cast so many shadows and once 25+ mobs all get Double Attack so with WAR/MNK youll get more VIT which adds to more DEF which adds to less DMG from mob which adds further to more hate along with dodge and focus and also couner attack
i belive that a WAR/MNK would make a far better effective tank then a WAR/NIN cuz WAR/NIN are mainly used as DD because of the Axe's very nice WS
WAR/MNK usually lvcl with Gaxe and Gsword
oh and fury i lvl on scorps all the time from lvl 39-45 in CN then on ot rumble crawlers
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Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:24 pm
What no rant about PLD's yet?!?!?!?
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Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:37 pm
Heres some things Ive heard from my Ls or actually had to say them my self (limited to PTs no higher than about 30):
BRD:Why the hell do you only use one song!! (yes I actually had that problem)
WAR:WHM is not a WAR Sub for PTs, we have a WHM for a reason
NIN:Casting utsu doesnt work if u dont let some1 get the aggro off of u for a second first
WHM:Benediction!!!! We still add half health left, but ur dead so oh well.
WHM:Curaga!!!We were fine, but once again ur not
^Same WHM, two consecutive fights^
MNK:Why are you pulling when we have a RNG
DRK sad I cant say anything about my own job)
PLD:The WHM IS aloud to heal you if your HP is very low and ur out of MP
RDM:Leave
Many Different Ppl:Lvl ur Sub, PLZ
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:31 am
About the BLM AF: Yup, most of them sucks for INT, but all that added - Enmity helps, especially when your tank is a Ninja. Easy way to solve things is to use equipment change macros for certain occassions, like enfeebles, damage, MP regen while healing, and - Enmity gear. The AF parts aren't the best for damage, but they have their uses.
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:49 am
Fury Angel (Why the hell do RDM get +CHR? *Sigh*) this is just to your + on AF: Some weapon skills have another attribute to them, i don't know all of them: but one of the THF's highest and best WS base off the CHR stat. (there's a knife that adds +7 CHR [THF only] for that WS.) maybe one of the WAR skills fend from INT?
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Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:24 pm
About WAR/NIN. To make it work, you need high evasion, and high defense, also good timing. However, Ive seen this combo work on high delay mobs, and they never get hit. /MNK Works, and I won't deny that, but I've seen WAR/MNKs get owned against mobs with double attack, while WAR/NIN barely gets hit.
Once again, same thing applies to NIN. Good timing = no damage taken.
BLM -enemity does indeed help, although I would rather see a BLM conserve MP and do uber damage with +INT and not get hit, than spam nuke for less, consume more mp, but not get hate.
PLD >>> All I have to say is this: Staff > Sword & Shield.
Think about it. -20 damage taken. Spirit taker = Unlimited MP. Add refresh to that and you get Total hate and healing.
Sounds good.
And I don't understand the comment about the "RDM: Leave". As a Redmage, I can take the place of any support, or healer, or both, and still do my job as an enfeebler without running out of MP EVER.
Doubt me? Go ahead. I love showing up hotshots. Wee! 3nodding
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Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:34 am
Quote: About WAR/NIN. To make it work, you need high evasion, and high defense, also good timing. However, Ive seen this combo work on high delay mobs, and they never get hit. /MNK Works, and I won't deny that, but I've seen WAR/MNKs get owned against mobs with double attack, while WAR/NIN barely gets hit.
Timing, I'm gonna have to agree. For me, I try to get a type of rythm (Don't ask...That's just how I do it.) for the timing it takes between each mob attacks to get it right where they might hit me while I'm still pre-20% on casting and can make it to the sucessful cast.
Anyways...Back to WAR/MNK vs. WAR/NIN on Double Attack mobs...The thing with WAR/MNK is that they also have the chance for Counter to kick in to save dmg against them while also providing dmg against the mob. /MNK also has a higher VIT, DEF, and HP then a /NIN for the...Lets say 25-32 area. HP and VIT along with DEF are the real things that can make the difference in tanking. In the jungles, lvling as a NIN or a WAR/NIN is gonna be torture for the tank in two things: Hate management and shadows. The Double Attack proc rate on a Mandy is high enough to rip through the shadows just a few seconds after they were casted. If there isn't any DEF and VIT along with HP under those shadows, you're gonna get hit hard and lose HP faster till it's at a dangerous point. /MNK, as I mentioned before, can offer Counter to prevent some of this dmg from Double Attack along with offering the HP, VIT, and DEF to take the hits.
From the WAR68/NIN34 view I'm speaking from, +evasion won't even do much for me. My last time tanking was at 64 in Boyahda Tree against the crawlers. My evasion sucks even when capped but the rare chances of a miss from a EXP mob on me is a nice sight but a extremely rare one. The only things I see that save me when my shadows are down and trying to recast are...
- Flash from the WHM
- Parrying skill
- VIT from my AF body
- DEF from full AF
- The 1/100 chances of evasion working
Those are the things that help me if I were to tank again right now. Flash, even though it can draw hate, it WILL make a difference for that small time it takes to start casting shadows again. It may not look like it'll work but it will.
But for NIN vs. WAR/NIN at pre-50, NIN has an advantage in the tanking with shadows because they have Utsusemi: Ni already. Another difference is the Ninjitsu skill. Because of the drastic difference between the two, a NIN can still get hit and has a higher chance to cast on a EXP mob then a /NIN because of the skill lvls when subbed.Quote: PLD >>> All I have to say is this: Staff > Sword & Shield. Think about it. -20 damage taken. Spirit taker = Unlimited MP. Add refresh to that and you get Total hate and healing.
I can't seem to figure out the situations but I do know that Staff works better against the lizards in Den of Rancor when I was lvling compared to Sword & Shield. I just know it's situational for the uses of them in exp.
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