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Lady__Miko

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:46 pm


Quote:
Abortion is bad because God says so" cannot be debated. Either one believes this, or one doesn't.


Actually, it can and has been breifly debated on ED. In this situation, pro lifers and pro choicers bring up scripture to prove or disprove the notion that God doesn't like abortion, and that it most importantly calls Christians to defend the fetus (or to put it another way, stay out of the woman's bussiness).


To be honest, I think religion is as valid as any other reasoning someone uses. Ethics are the basis after all, of what facts we search for and to ignore them means to just have a recycling topic very much like the ED. If a pro choicer doesn't want to debate what builds the morals/ethics of their opponent then the discussion goes nowhere. I can say that religion is the reason I beleive abortion is wrong. It may not be the reason every pro choicer would like. It may not be something their morals can relate to, but in truth that doesn't make it any less of some of their oppnents beleifs. Why should some lifers have to push aside one of if not the biggest reason behind their being pro life? Not being able to be completely honest with why you are pro life or pro choice can cripple you extremely in an arguement. Like it or not, I think it's about time people accepted there are people out there who base their morals on the religion they've chosen.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:15 pm


Lady Miko...you sound alot like Sarah Tazaro...

Tiger of the Fire


Lady__Miko

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:41 am


Pyrotechnic Oracle
Lady Miko...you sound alot like Sarah Tazaro...


who? neutral
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:44 pm


www.clinicquotes.com I've spoken with her over E-mail before, you two sound alot alike.

Tiger of the Fire


Elindarhya

Generous Entrepreneur

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:49 pm


Lady__Miko


The RSV is one translation that supports the pro-choice conclusion. It says,

When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

The RSV assumes that a "miscarriage" happens, and the foetus is born dead. This implies that the loss of the unborn is no "harm," because it says, "If there is a miscarriage and yet no harm follows . . ." It is possible for the blow to cause a miscarriage and yet not count as "harm" which would have to be recompensed life for life, eye for eye, etc.

This translation seems to put the unborn in the category of a non-person with little value. The fine which must be paid may be for the loss of the child. Money suffices. Whereas if "harm follows" (to the woman!) then more than money must be given. In that case it is life for life, etc.

But is this the right translation? The NIV does not assume that a miscarriage happened. The NIV translates the text like this:

If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life . . .

What the NIV implies is that the child is born alive and that the penalty of life for life, eye for eye, etc. applies to the child as well as the mother. If injury comes to the child or the mother there will not just be a fine but life for life, eye for eye, etc.

I agree with this translation. Here is my own literal rendering from the original Hebrew:

And when men fight and strike a pregnant woman ('ishah harah) and her children (yeladeyha) go forth (weyatse'u), and there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the husband of the woman may put upon him; and he shall give by the judges. But if there is injury, you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

The key phrase is "and the children go forth." The RSV (and NASB!) translates this as a miscarriage. The NIV translates it as a premature live birth. In the former case the unborn is not treated with the same rights as the mother, because the miscarriage is not counted as serious loss to be recompensed life for life. In the latter case the unborn is treated the same as the mother because the child is included in the stipulation that if injury comes there shall be life for life. Which of these interpretations is correct?

In favor of the NIV translation are the following arguments:

1. There is a Hebrew verb for miscarry or lose by abortion or be bereaved of the fruit of the womb, namely, shakal. It is used near by in Exodus 23:26, "None shall miscarry (meshakelah) or be barren in your land." But this word is NOT used here in Exodus 21:22-25.

2. Rather the word for birth here is "go forth" (ytsa'). "And if her children go forth . . ." This verb never refers to a miscarriage or abortion. When it refers to a birth it refers to live children "going forth" or "coming out" from the womb. For example, Genesis 25:25, "And the first came out (wyetse') red, all of him like a hairy robe; and they called his name Esau." (See also v. 26 and Genesis 38:28-30.)

So the word for miscarry is not used but a word is used that elsewhere does not mean miscarry but ordinary live birth.


You see, this is why the LDS believe the Bible to be the word of God so long as it is translated correctly

That was rather interesting to read. And you know, Jacob and Esua are a perfect example of there being life and a soul before birth. I don't have my Bible right here, but I do believe it mentions something about their souls stirring within her...or some such thing. Its been awhile since I've read that particular place... Help me out if you'd like. But still, my point is that there are examples where it points to souls before birth, not at birth.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:29 pm


Yes, that verse i have as a highlight in my thread in the PLED

Genesis 25:21,22 states: "and Rebekah his [Isaac's] wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her" Note that Rebekah's unborn twins, Jacob and Esau, are referred to as 'children' (the Hebrew word used, banim, is the usual word for sons after birth). Unborn babies are not disposable clumps of tissue, despite the claims of many pro-abortionists. And they are always human right from fertilization, because all the DNA coding needed to build each individual's physical features is there in the fertilized egg...No, the Bible, supported by science, teaches that the unborn baby is a human child (see also Psalm 139:13,16, Jeremiah 1:5, Luke 1:41,44).

Tiger of the Fire


Elindarhya

Generous Entrepreneur

PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:41 pm


Pyro Tiger
Yes, that verse i have as a highlight in my thread in the PLED

Genesis 25:21,22 states: "and Rebekah his [Isaac's] wife conceived. And the children struggled together within her" Note that Rebekah's unborn twins, Jacob and Esau, are referred to as 'children' (the Hebrew word used, banim, is the usual word for sons after birth). Unborn babies are not disposable clumps of tissue, despite the claims of many pro-abortionists. And they are always human right from fertilization, because all the DNA coding needed to build each individual's physical features is there in the fertilized egg...No, the Bible, supported by science, teaches that the unborn baby is a human child (see also Psalm 139:13,16, Jeremiah 1:5, Luke 1:41,44).


biggrin Thanks very much. I was going to go look it up myself today but didn't have the chance. Now everyone can see the verse I was reffering too.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:50 am


Lady__Miko
Quote:
Abortion is bad because God says so" cannot be debated. Either one believes this, or one doesn't.


Actually, it can and has been breifly debated on ED. In this situation, pro lifers and pro choicers bring up scripture to prove or disprove the notion that God doesn't like abortion, and that it most importantly calls Christians to defend the fetus (or to put it another way, stay out of the woman's bussiness).


To be honest, I think religion is as valid as any other reasoning someone uses. Ethics are the basis after all, of what facts we search for and to ignore them means to just have a recycling topic very much like the ED. If a pro choicer doesn't want to debate what builds the morals/ethics of their opponent then the discussion goes nowhere. I can say that religion is the reason I beleive abortion is wrong. It may not be the reason every pro choicer would like. It may not be something their morals can relate to, but in truth that doesn't make it any less of some of their oppnents beleifs. Why should some lifers have to push aside one of if not the biggest reason behind their being pro life? Not being able to be completely honest with why you are pro life or pro choice can cripple you extremely in an arguement. Like it or not, I think it's about time people accepted there are people out there who base their morals on the religion they've chosen.

I meant that you couldn't debate with God, not that you couldn't debate with the idea that God might or might not hate abortion. *grin*

And religion is a perfectly valid reason to be against (or for) abortion (or anything). It just isn't a very debatable reason. If I belonged to a religion that stated that all frogs were evil (which I don't, nor do I know of one that believes this) it would not convince anyone else that frogs were evil if I told them this. Nor would it be a very good way to back up my anti-frog arguments, and most people I debated against frogs with would not believe in this belief.

A religious belief is a very, very valid personal reason. But it isn't a very good debate point, because you have to be able to back up your arguments. The Bible isn't very definate either way on abortion, though many people interpt verses to be for or against abortion (like God knowing some people in the womb could be a reason that someone might be against abortion, but can't be said to be definate on this issue and couldn't be used in a debate).

Likewise, to convince you that frogs are evil, I would have to use secular arguments, as you don't believe in my (hypothetical) religious reasons for this belief. Even though my (fictional) religion is a perfectly reason for me to believe that frogs are evil, it wouldn't convince you.

Did that make any sense?

WatersMoon110
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ryokomayuka

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:38 am


WatersMoon110
Lady__Miko
Quote:
Abortion is bad because God says so" cannot be debated. Either one believes this, or one doesn't.


Actually, it can and has been breifly debated on ED. In this situation, pro lifers and pro choicers bring up scripture to prove or disprove the notion that God doesn't like abortion, and that it most importantly calls Christians to defend the fetus (or to put it another way, stay out of the woman's bussiness).


To be honest, I think religion is as valid as any other reasoning someone uses. Ethics are the basis after all, of what facts we search for and to ignore them means to just have a recycling topic very much like the ED. If a pro choicer doesn't want to debate what builds the morals/ethics of their opponent then the discussion goes nowhere. I can say that religion is the reason I beleive abortion is wrong. It may not be the reason every pro choicer would like. It may not be something their morals can relate to, but in truth that doesn't make it any less of some of their oppnents beleifs. Why should some lifers have to push aside one of if not the biggest reason behind their being pro life? Not being able to be completely honest with why you are pro life or pro choice can cripple you extremely in an arguement. Like it or not, I think it's about time people accepted there are people out there who base their morals on the religion they've chosen.

I meant that you couldn't debate with God, not that you couldn't debate with the idea that God might or might not hate abortion. *grin*

And religion is a perfectly valid reason to be against (or for) abortion (or anything). It just isn't a very debatable reason. If I belonged to a religion that stated that all frogs were evil (which I don't, nor do I know of one that believes this) it would not convince anyone else that frogs were evil if I told them this. Nor would it be a very good way to back up my anti-frog arguments, and most people I debated against frogs with would not believe in this belief.

A religious belief is a very, very valid personal reason. But it isn't a very good debate point, because you have to be able to back up your arguments. The Bible isn't very definate either way on abortion, though many people interpt verses to be for or against abortion (like God knowing some people in the womb could be a reason that someone might be against abortion, but can't be said to be definate on this issue and couldn't be used in a debate).

Likewise, to convince you that frogs are evil, I would have to use secular arguments, as you don't believe in my (hypothetical) religious reasons for this belief. Even though my (fictional) religion is a perfectly reason for me to believe that frogs are evil, it wouldn't convince you.

Did that make any sense?


Yes.
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The Pro-life Guild

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