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 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:10 am
Education before eradication
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:02 am
Comrade Rob Education before eradication I agree. I don't think that a member should be able to be banned for ideological differences. However, as Gracchvs said in the chat, the guild is to be a safe haven for socialists and similarly-minded individuals. My interpretation is that we will permit varying ideologies, but will not tolerate racism, sexism, etc. within the guild. Basically, the same anti-discrimination rules that would apply in schools, the workplace, etc. should apply here.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:37 am
I vote yes. I don't tolerate racism.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:29 am
Lady Merewyn We were just discussing that in the chat. Apparently Tank deleted them...? wtf are you talking about?
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:27 am
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:25 am
I LOVE BLACK LAGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like that idea too twisted
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:09 am
SoViEtTaNkT34 Lady Merewyn We were just discussing that in the chat. Apparently Tank deleted them...? wtf are you talking about? The constitution. It's gone.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:11 am
SoViEtTaNkT34 Lady Merewyn We were just discussing that in the chat. Apparently Tank deleted them...? wtf are you talking about? The constitution was in the Announcements thread... That you deleted a few weeks ago...
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:31 am
I would vote against banning - he generated more discussion than the previous weeks combined. Note furthermore than I am sorely disappointed in this guild. Given, I may be overly criticizing, but last night the "ask Valg" thread went on for quite a while with various well educated members attempting to dissuade Valg from his racist beliefs - but they never did so from the Marxian perspective. They approached it, primarily, from the social and scientific perspective. Affective ways to argue, but in no way as effective, especially in regards to the individual in question who is a poor factory worker! Should we not have instantly pointed out that fact that there is a group of people who desire each and every one of us to be racist? So that the working class remains disunited, self-loathing, and backwards! This was not brought up in the least as I recall - hopefully it was done later, I sincerely hope so.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:58 am
Gallenger I would vote against banning - he generated more discussion than the previous weeks combined. Note furthermore than I am sorely disappointed in this guild. Given, I may be overly criticizing, but last night the "ask Valg" thread went on for quite a while with various well educated members attempting to dissuade Valg from his racist beliefs - but they never did so from the Marxian perspective. They approached it, primarily, from the social and scientific perspective. Affective ways to argue, but in no way as effective, especially in regards to the individual in question who is a poor factory worker! Should we not have instantly pointed out that fact that there is a group of people who desire each and every one of us to be racist? So that the working class remains disunited, self-loathing, and backwards! This was not brought up in the least as I recall - hopefully it was done later, I sincerely hope so. And yet you didn't involve yourself in the thread? While denouncing me in the chat with everyone else, it was up to other people to argue with him! You had your chance, so now your high horse is shown to be merely a sick donkey. The fact is that this person shouldn't be in the guild in the first place, and by being in the guild disrupts its purpose as an educative facility and a safe-haven for those on the left. Rather than try to convince him of the error of his ways, he should have been kicked immediately. As I have repeatedly said over the last... however many hours, this is a safe-haven for socialists and far-leftists to come to and argue and discuss without the basic assumptions (the existence, pervasiveness and horror of racism, sexism and other forms of oppression), and instead talk about how to deal with them and how to get rid of them. Precisely because that aspect is disrupted by the fascist presence people have to deal with it (again, which for all your bluster about 'proving them wrong' you didn't even attempt). The task, as distasteful as it is, was taken up with great energy by some of the members of the guild. This energy is better spent in education and self-clarification, i.e., arguing with other rightful members of the guild. This is energy and time wasted that could be spent on fruitful discussion, and at the same time, it was spent in a stupid defence of the guild where there was a much simpler course of action. How are we meant to pose as a safe-haven and a guild for the education of socialists when most of our energy is not spent in education and clarifying NCS matters, but in dealing with outsiders, and outsiders, I might add, that are absolutely opposed to accepting or abolishing those things which we take as our basic assumptions? There is only on way to deal with such people, they must be banned. Only in that way can we maintain the status of the guild as a safe-haven, as well as keep it functioning as an educational facility... as opposed to arguing with people who who oppose us, oppose the guild, and who only come here in order to dissrupt its exercise of those functions.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:07 pm
The reason I chose not to intervene was in the hopes that *somebody* else would stumble upon the correct way to do things. The funny part is I even hoped you logged on because I figured, much like on the Women's question, you probably already had a cut and paste-able tirade on the class origins of racism. Unfortunately I was incorrect. I stayed out of the debate because I wanted other members to get involved. I've already argued with enough fascists in my time. I try to remain aloof unless it's a question I doubt anybody else could answer.
I also would say I don't think he was being terribly disruptive - he only posted in threads which either A. he made, or B. were directly relating to his situation. Or that one post in the elections thread where he notes he can't post in it lol.
Self-criticism is a very important part of our method Gracchvs. And this isn't a new development, Mike and I took a break to play some tf 2 last night and I mentioned my disappointment then as well.
A short coming was revealed by this fascist - if I get time tomorrow I'll write a nice guide on Racism and pint out some good txt books on the matter.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:08 pm
Gracchvs Gallenger I would vote against banning - he generated more discussion than the previous weeks combined. Note furthermore than I am sorely disappointed in this guild. Given, I may be overly criticizing, but last night the "ask Valg" thread went on for quite a while with various well educated members attempting to dissuade Valg from his racist beliefs - but they never did so from the Marxian perspective. They approached it, primarily, from the social and scientific perspective. Affective ways to argue, but in no way as effective, especially in regards to the individual in question who is a poor factory worker! Should we not have instantly pointed out that fact that there is a group of people who desire each and every one of us to be racist? So that the working class remains disunited, self-loathing, and backwards! This was not brought up in the least as I recall - hopefully it was done later, I sincerely hope so. And yet you didn't involve yourself in the thread? While denouncing me in the chat with everyone else, it was up to other people to argue with him! You had your chance, so now your high horse is shown to be merely a sick donkey. The fact is that this person shouldn't be in the guild in the first place, and by being in the guild disrupts its purpose as an educative facility and a safe-haven for those on the left. Rather than try to convince him of the error of his ways, he should have been kicked immediately. As I have repeatedly said over the last... however many hours, this is a safe-haven for socialists and far-leftists to come to and argue and discuss without the basic assumptions (the existence, pervasiveness and horror of racism, sexism and other forms of oppression), and instead talk about how to deal with them and how to get rid of them. Precisely because that aspect is disrupted by the fascist presence people have to deal with it (again, which for all your bluster about 'proving them wrong' you didn't even attempt). The task, as distasteful as it is, was taken up with great energy by some of the members of the guild. This energy is better spent in education and self-clarification, i.e., arguing with other rightful members of the guild. This is energy and time wasted that could be spent on fruitful discussion, and at the same time, it was spent in a stupid defence of the guild where there was a much simpler course of action. How are we meant to pose as a safe-haven and a guild for the education of socialists when most of our energy is not spent in education and clarifying NCS matters, but in dealing with outsiders, and outsiders, I might add, that are absolutely opposed to accepting or abolishing those things which we take as our basic assumptions? There is only on way to deal with such people, they must be banned. Only in that way can we maintain the status of the guild as a safe-haven, as well as keep it functioning as an educational facility... as opposed to arguing with people who who oppose us, oppose the guild, and who only come here in order to dissrupt its exercise of those functions. And yet many of the newer members aren't as grounded on the foundations of Marxism yet, and need practice and education. Arguments such as the one yesterday are not fruitless, but rather educational opportunities. Even our base assumptions are worthless if they cannot be defended, and our ideas are strong enough to stand for themselves. We need to fight the ideology, rather than slamming down the banhammer on individuals but allowing such ideologies to continue to exist.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:16 pm
"Destroy all credibility"? Do you think any guild on this site has any credibility?
Your guild introduction mentioned Socialism, which I support, although Nationally.
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:18 pm
Miss White Minority "Destroy all credibility"? Do you think any guild on this site has any credibility? Your guild introduction mentioned Socialism, which I support, although Nationally. WEll, are you a racist nazi? OR a non-racist nazi?
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Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:20 pm
Herobane Miss White Minority "Destroy all credibility"? Do you think any guild on this site has any credibility? Your guild introduction mentioned Socialism, which I support, although Nationally. WEll, are you a racist nazi? OR a non-racist nazi? You of course would like to assume I'm a white supremacist like you seem to assume of every Nazi, don't you? wink
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