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Draevir
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:10 pm


Exoda
from my understanding they see through ultraviolet. but the makers of dnd got tired of spliting infra-vision and ultra-vision so to make things easyer for game mechanics they created darkvision. Anyhow, no x-ray nekkid viewing for infravision, sorry, lol.

if they saw through infrared.. they would be able to see colors for heat, and likely see through cloths... which could get weird...


Not neccessarily true, infrared radiation will reflect off of and/or be absorbed by material such as clothing or about anything else, and in fact, heat coronas will not exist as the infrared photons will not actually "appear" to heightened senses unless they are first "reflected" off of a surface, just like light. An exception would be something that puts off a corona normally, like "fire" or a bright light.

As was mentioned earlier, the closest analogy we have to envision infravision would be looking through infrared nightvision goggles. In this case, objects' outlines are still readily identifiable, however, distinct patterns on surfaces are somewhat muted, although with really high powered NVG's, you can see patterns and texture just as well as you could with normal vision in daylight. The only catch is that everything is monochrome (the NVG's I've used showed everything in green).

Darkvision is probably more of a supernatural ability rather than something nature would have designed, but keep in mind it only works well for about 120 feet for drow (40 yards). After that things get blurry/dim. If Darkvision were based purely on natural infra and ultra visual reception, it would be boring and alien, althought that's just an opinion.

EDIT: a further note about NVG's (night vision goggles)... the only reason they can "see" infrared is because they actually emit infrared radiation which is reflected back to them (otherwise, at night, not enough IR is radiated from natural surroundings to be viewed practically).

If you are hunting enemy soldiers wearing NVG's at night for example, and you don NVG's yourself, you will stand out to them like a christmas tree from a mile away because the IR you emit from your own goggles will be very bright to them at a great distance. In the case of infravision, this would mean eyes emitting IR radiation would glow to others using infravision... to a great distance. This makes infravision not very practical in a hostile environment like the underdark.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:14 am


Draevir
Exoda
from my understanding they see through ultraviolet. but the makers of dnd got tired of spliting infra-vision and ultra-vision so to make things easyer for game mechanics they created darkvision. Anyhow, no x-ray nekkid viewing for infravision, sorry, lol.

if they saw through infrared.. they would be able to see colors for heat, and likely see through cloths... which could get weird...


Not neccessarily true, infrared radiation will reflect off of and/or be absorbed by material such as clothing or about anything else, and in fact, heat coronas will not exist as the infrared photons will not actually "appear" to heightened senses unless they are first "reflected" off of a surface, just like light. An exception would be something that puts off a corona normally, like "fire" or a bright light.

As was mentioned earlier, the closest analogy we have to envision infravision would be looking through infrared nightvision goggles. In this case, objects' outlines are still readily identifiable, however, distinct patterns on surfaces are somewhat muted, although with really high powered NVG's, you can see patterns and texture just as well as you could with normal vision in daylight. The only catch is that everything is monochrome (the NVG's I've used showed everything in green).

Darkvision is probably more of a supernatural ability rather than something nature would have designed, but keep in mind it only works well for about 120 feet for drow (40 yards). After that things get blurry/dim. If Darkvision were based purely on natural infra and ultra visual reception, it would be boring and alien, althought that's just an opinion.

EDIT: a further note about NVG's (night vision goggles)... the only reason they can "see" infrared is because they actually emit infrared radiation which is reflected back to them (otherwise, at night, not enough IR is radiated from natural surroundings to be viewed practically).

If you are hunting enemy soldiers wearing NVG's at night for example, and you don NVG's yourself, you will stand out to them like a christmas tree from a mile away because the IR you emit from your own goggles will be very bright to them at a great distance. In the case of infravision, this would mean eyes emitting IR radiation would glow to others using infravision... to a great distance. This makes infravision not very practical in a hostile environment like the underdark.


i still don't see what would stop nature from evolving Darkvision in a species. please, if you can come up with a good argument for why that would not likely happen, i want to read it, and possibly discuss this. i still think it perfectly reasonable posibility.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:05 pm


In real world, dark vision can't exist as our understanding of science currently stands. It falls in the realm of supernatural, or even magic... not "nature."

Nature does have ways for critters to perceive infrared and ultraviolet wavelengths of radiation in limited fashion however.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:40 pm


just because it hasn't been seen in any animals yet, i don' think it seems to be impossible... it would be a simple find in nature i think. it would require like a kind of autoflorescent little thing in the eyes, and like another type of lid. it would close over and act like a type of filter and cmbined with that light it would act like a darkvision.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:36 pm


*cracks fingers* Level 1 thermographer coming...

When it comes to NVG, light is needed to see in the dark. Sounds strange, but true. If you got a pair of goggles, lock yourself in the bathroom with no light and tell me what you see. Here, I'll tell you what you will see...nothing. Reason is because NVG uses intensifier lens to amplify the light around the wearer's surrounding. In a way, NVG work like Elven Low Light vision.

Now as for Thermoimaging equipment, Those pick up residual heat (or radiation) that bounce around the surface of things. I believe this is how Darkvision works, in which Drow's and Orc's eyes pick up heat radiation around them and converts them into a vision.

So how I would see it is Infravision is like looking through a Infrared Camera (not NVG) with a gray scale setting.

This is the perfect example of how it would look like seeing through Darkvision. On the right is normal spectrum vision at night. On the left is Infrared vision.

Blah, hope this clarify a bit.

EDIT: Also, animal's eyes use the NVG technique to see in the dark, not Infrared. Animals still require light to see in the dark. However, some animals can sense heat signatures but not through sight. They have sensory organs that are sensitive to heat to pick up signatures (like snake's nostril). They can sense the heat, but they don't "see" in it. *shrugs*
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:43 pm


lol dork but you are right now my question is about drizzits eyes does he see differently or is it just that he had the blue eye gene in his red eyes (since blue+red=purple)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:52 pm


dot_hack_ver2
lol dork but you are right now my question is about drizzits eyes does he see differently or is it just that he had the blue eye gene in his red eyes (since blue+red=purple)


lol I don't think it works that way with his eyes changing colors. It isn't the fact he has blue eye gene mixed with red that gives him his purple eyes. Purple eyes, much like amber color eyes, are genetically there for Drows to have. It's just rare for Drows to have them, thus why Drizzt is special.

According to D&D, eye color doesn't change when looking into Darkvision, only vision. Now Salvatore might of made mention of eye colors changing when shifting vision, but as Kumi Caelos pointed out, Salvatore isn't the best of source when it comes to Drow biggrin

EDIT: Oh, and to your question, dot, no, Drizzt sees everything much like how regular red eyed Drows can see.

Also, from the d20srd website on Darkvision:

d20srd.org
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.



EDIT: So upon re-reading the Darkvision, I guess it really isn't the ability to see heat signatures biggrin SO Infravision would be the incorrect term to use how Drow's see.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:59 am


NVG's do "EMIT" infrared light which reflects off of nearby objects helping to "light up" the area.

The video you linked showed "hot" hillsides which were actually radiating infrared radiation which they'd been absorbing all day long.

The colder those hills might get, the less easy it would be to see them distinctly, UNLESS infrared light was bounced off of them from the viewing instrument in which case, it would be easier.

I used to use NVG's alot at night and have quite a bit of experience with good and bad conditions and how well flipping on the IR emitter helps to get around. wink Only problem, is if you flip on your IR emitter, you stand out like a shining beacon to anyone else who happens to be looking your way and wearing NVG's also... at great distance, pretty much if you can see them, they can see you.

I also know that terrain does absorb IR as well as reflect it, since I used to play with passive IR anti-aircraft missiles and had to figure out how to keep those pesky hillsides IR from messing with my target locking.

If drow "dark vision" worked the same way, it would indeed see in monochrome (single color) shades, however, in order to be effective in COMPLETE darkness, the eyes would need to emit their own infrared light to reflect off surroundings to be perceived. Not very feasible if the dark elves are trying to stay stealthy.

Thus, dark vision from 3e should just be treated as a "mystery" and accepted as working just because.

Trying to explain it rationally and scientifically exposes it as unplausible. It just works, cause it works. whee

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:36 am


Draevir

Trying to explain it rationally and scientifically exposes it as unplausible. It just works, cause it works. whee


lol That's true xD I guess attempting to explain scientifically how Darkvision works in a fantasy RP is a tad futile biggrin
PostPosted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:09 pm


Draevir


The video you linked showed "hot" hillsides which were actually radiating infrared radiation which they'd been absorbing all day long.

Yea, i noticed that, would it be plausible to say then that the heat givin into clothes from said person would then also be distinguishable in their own nature? Because if so then Exoda was wrong (not dissing you Exoda just trying to state a point 3nodding )in saying you would be able to see through the clothes; because every mass has a csp (heat capacity) therefore visible with infrared sight when heat is stored by any said object.

What is funny is today we were going over the colour spectrum in Chemistry and it showed a chart where visible light (the human colour spectrum) was and a little bit before that was the infrared night vision. So i drew a bar that connected the infrared vision and visible light. lol i got a kick out of it. If i am wrong in doing so please let me know.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:48 pm


Curious how everyone dumps on Salvatore, but even Greenwood admits that the reason we have the drow world we have to day is thanks to him. Granted, he's been around so long that his stuff isnt canon now, mainly because TSR and now Wizards changes their minds every 6 months in an effort to sell a new batch of books.

The drow of D&D are very different today from when they started. Even more so the fact that the setting of FR was originally very different from the old Greyhawk world that AD&D was set in. Drow have been reworked numerous times for different setting and game systems. Each has put a new twist or spin on the race to make them more playable or interesting.. or even just to fit with the rules of the newer system.

Myself.. I was introduced to Drow through Drizzt. I don't like the guy, but I enjoyed the stories, the settings and the concepts of their world. Rules change, stories adapt and we stumble on in their dark world.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:59 am


I do dump on Salvatore and Greenwood overly much in the same way I might dump on a lottery ticket for paying me only $100 instead of $1000, lol.

I was introduced to drow through Gygax's first modules: D1 Descent to the Depths of the Earth, D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa, D3 Vault of the Drow, and Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits in 1985 (they were first published in 81 I think).

I did enjoy reading Salvatore's novels set in Faerun, but I am a grumbly old greyhawk drow at heart.

Infravision (and it's darkvision legacy) have always been, and will always be completely fantastical. I was entertained by Salvatore's rendition of infravision, as well as Gygax's. Neither were realistic, but both were fun. smile Salvatore at least had an excuse, as he was going off of TSR canon. Gygax made his version up himself, lol.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:52 pm


i remain truely a lover of the spirit of personal interpretation within a setting. xd for example, the Drow of Ebberon live in the ruins of the ancient Giant empire in Xen'drik. they were sepperated from their cousins by choosing to stay behind on the continent of their former masters instead of fleeing to the island-continant of Aerenal, and these Dark Elves tried to replicate the knowledge of magic and science that the Giants wielded before their fall into a devolultion to a savage primitive race. they don't worship a spider-queen semon goddess (though quite a number worship a cruel scorpion god), and they actually get along with other playable race sin the setting fairly well (if suspiciously, but after all, everyone in that setting is suspicious of everyone else).

in Lineage 2, the Dark Elves arn't even subteranean or nocturnal! they decided to learn dark magic to combat Humans who double-crossed them in a war against the Orcs, and the other Elves got paranoid and went to war with them.

in Tolkien's world, Dark Elf was a term given to the elves who chose to stay on Middle Earth instead of flee to Valanor. and teh Grey Elves were the descendants of Feanor who traveled to Valanor but returned to Middle Earth and were absolute bastards to the rest of the Elves.

point is, no single vision of the Drow is the "correct" one, it all depends on the setting. and everyone is gonna have their own opinion of how it should be, or what's teh best reperesentation. i think sometimes it's good to just have an open mind about these things and admire each of the individual versions, and the artistry behind each one. you don't have to like every detail about every version, but some respect towards the creative interpretation couldn't hurt.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:58 am


Dark Elves are not the same thing as Drow. This is part of the reason that there are so many discussions over what Drow are, and the reason for so many misconceptions.

Or rather, all Drow are Dark Elves, but not all Dark Elves are Drow.

As for infrared and ultraviolet the rods and cones in our eyes are sensitive to these wavelengths, but the lens over our eyes screens them out. People undergoing eye surgery without general anaesthetic have their vision overwhelmed by ultraviolet light during the surgery.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:09 am


First of, why the hell are you even mentioning L2 DEs here?

And if you're going to say your s**t, at least get your info right. They live under a mountain. How's that not subterranean? Also, DE fighters get a passive skill at level fifteen that increases their accuracy at night.

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http://www.lineage2.com/Knowledge/race_darkelf_skill.html?my_class=dark_elf_dark_fighter

Dark elves in L2 were originally called 'brown elves'. When the humans took over the land, they wanted power to defeat them and bring the glory back to the elves. So they learned forbidden black magic from a human, in return for the secret of immortality. The Tree elves were furious and banished them. In return, the brown elves attacked them. However, with their dying breath, the elves laid a curse upon the Brown elves. The curse rotted the woods of the Brown Elves and they became a race of darkness. Thereafter, Brown Elves were known as Dark Elves. Which led to wroshipping Shillien, goddess of death. The creator of Underworld and mother of demons and dragons.

But anyway. This thread isn't about dark elves. It is about drow. Simple, gosh darn, Dungeons & Dragons drow.

I repeat myself, I don't understand why would you bring up something that hasn't really much to do with the subject.
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DARK ELVEN LORE --- History, culture, lore, myths and magic of the UnderGaia races

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