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 Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:32 pm
Kino D Just Tony Karma doesn't exclusively apply to this life. Based on the fact they believe in reincarnation, rewarded based upon the deeds of the previous life, revolves around the idea of karma. Organized religion is also at the forefront of humanitarian efforts. Hospitals? Were do you think they received their name? The Hospitalers. Organized religion has had profound impact upon the worlds of art, music, literature, architecture and more. It is what led the early pilgrims of this country to come here as well, in seeking religious freedom free from the King's rule and the Church of England's dictating. Has it caused harm in the world? Of course. Has it also done good? Yes. You're free to label myself and others as weak if that's what you honestly believe. I'm not going to try and change your mind further. You'll possibly only continue to view me as "weak" and use that to refute anything I say, even the points I made in the previous post concerning authority issues and no one wanting to have to answer for their wrongdoings. Remember, though, that even Buddhism has its quirks, and what goes on in those temples isn't always holy, holy, holy. And the colonisation of America was a good thing? Please, enlighten me... I must have skipped that history class. And medical treatment and hospitals sprung up in China and India hundreds of years before Christianity was founded. So what if the name 'hospital' has a catholic source, it's still just a name for something that originated in another place, another time, and had nothing to do with religion. And as for music, sure it influenced music. But I don't think it was a good influence. Bach, Mozart? They would have composed music regardless if the Church had existed or not. As it was, NO music that wasn't church music was allowed, and that's censorship. Beethoven was the first musician to break away from the clutches of Christianity to create independent music. Everywhere that wasn't Europe, music was free to develop on its own. As for the Church's influence on early black music, such as blues, you also have to remember that it was majorly the Church and various religious groups that persecuted the black population. They even labeled blues "the devil's music". Hardly the best of influences, there... And quite frankly, if the world is ever to be equal, religion, like any other institution that puts a value on human life based on belief or sexual preference, needs to go. Regardless if religion has done good or bad in the past, it's outdated. There simply is no room for a religion that judges others arbitrarily in a world of science, technology and globalisation. It's just another thing that alienates people from one another. Black, white, red, yellow. Upper class, middle class, lower class. Rich, poor. Muslim, catholic, hindu. They are all the same thing, and these boundaries all need to vanish. The colonization of America has led to the country being found that today can perhaps boast of having the most rights and recognized civil liberties. Sure, we're still prone to censorship and some things are given more stigma than perhaps need be, especially concerning sexual lifestyles, but there are countries that even lawfully forbid some subjects of thought and artistic expression. I agree that the Church has been stifling of creativity, but it has also been a source of it. Some things that the Church has labeled the work of the Devil, can in a sense be thought of that way reasonably after some thought. Science does turn some away from God, but it also draws others near Him in their work. Music can be a source of rebellion, and rock did spawn metal, which both play upon themes of darkness, rebellion, sex, drug abuse and the such. Perhaps by saying it is of the Devil, they're referring to what they then, and still see as cultural degredation and moral decay. Some take it to extremes, but in some cases I could understand this line of thinking. I agree that many things need to go in this world. Many within my faith are misunderstanding of the greater messages so simply delivered, and seem have fallen to the fate of the Pharisees of Jesus' time. But this is true of other faiths as well. To touch on an earlier subject, I'm not one to believe those without faith cannot do good, or be good in nature. I do think, generally, but not on the whole, that those without some sort of faith do not always have the best of moral compasses, and sometimes are a little more subject to ill choices. This is probably just subjective, but I think it possible. It's mostly based upon my experiences of those with a religion, and those without. Working in a Pagan store, I think I get a firsthand approach on the idea anyways. Alas, I'm going to not get aggrivated or anything, and see that we both make points, but each still have our respective opinions. Would anyone else like to discuss anything, or bring up new ideas or thoughts to this topic?
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:14 am
Just Tony The colonization of America has led to the country being found that today can perhaps boast of having the most rights and recognized civil liberties. Sure, we're still prone to censorship and some things are given more stigma than perhaps need be, especially concerning sexual lifestyles, but there are countries that even lawfully forbid some subjects of thought and artistic expression. I agree that the Church has been stifling of creativity, but it has also been a source of it. Some things that the Church has labeled the work of the Devil, can in a sense be thought of that way reasonably after some thought. Science does turn some away from God, but it also draws others near Him in their work. Music can be a source of rebellion, and rock did spawn metal, which both play upon themes of darkness, rebellion, sex, drug abuse and the such. Perhaps by saying it is of the Devil, they're referring to what they then, and still see as cultural degredation and moral decay. Some take it to extremes, but in some cases I could understand this line of thinking. I agree that many things need to go in this world. Many within my faith are misunderstanding of the greater messages so simply delivered, and seem have fallen to the fate of the Pharisees of Jesus' time. But this is true of other faiths as well. To touch on an earlier subject, I'm not one to believe those without faith cannot do good, or be good in nature. I do think, generally, but not on the whole, that those without some sort of faith do not always have the best of moral compasses, and sometimes are a little more subject to ill choices. This is probably just subjective, but I think it possible. It's mostly based upon my experiences of those with a religion, and those without. Working in a Pagan store, I think I get a firsthand approach on the idea anyways. Alas, I'm going to not get aggrivated or anything, and see that we both make points, but each still have our respective opinions. Would anyone else like to discuss anything, or bring up new ideas or thoughts to this topic? Actually, pretty much all European countries are superior to America in terms of civil rights. You won't find that level of povertry, racial or sexual discrimination in any of the developed European countries, and your crime/murder statistics are up the roof. Sicilly (or whatever it's called. The island south of Italy) might be close to those statistics, with their crazy Camorra being in control and everything, but that's the exception. And SINGING about rebellion and 'darkness' is hardly a bad thing. Funny, really, how a Church that is responsible for the greatest manslaughter in human history has the right to judge a group of musicians and deem them 'evil'. Even as they labeled the blues as 'sinful' dozens of christian groups did whatever they wanted with the black population. Rape, murder, hangings and violence were commonplace even in the 20th century. And you're saying metal is a source of social decay and moral rot? Get real. Music hasn't got that kind of influence, and even if it did, black metal is UNDERGROUND music. You won't stumble upon it on MTV. Blame Britney and Kanye if you have to point fingers. Or better yet, blame mass media and the white christian population who teaches their kids to be judgemental. As for moral compasses, I have yet to meet a single Catholic who isn't a complete hypocrite. The moment you believe you have any right to judge another human being, you're wrong. And don't say 'you just judged them by calling them hypocrites!'. You can say 'those manslaughters are all in the past!', but that does not change the fact that they were ordered by 'holy' bishops and popes, who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocents on direct orders from God. Or are you denying the holiness of a dozen historical popes? Sounds like blasphemy to me. As for the crusifiction of Jesus, hey, I say, good riddance. If they hadn't off'd him, then the Romans would have invaded their lands again and gone on a regular killing spree. Also a case of 'right' versus 'good'. Kill one man -one who's just aching to become a martyr- or see their country ravaged?
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Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:07 am
Kino D Just Tony The colonization of America has led to the country being found that today can perhaps boast of having the most rights and recognized civil liberties. Sure, we're still prone to censorship and some things are given more stigma than perhaps need be, especially concerning sexual lifestyles, but there are countries that even lawfully forbid some subjects of thought and artistic expression. I agree that the Church has been stifling of creativity, but it has also been a source of it. Some things that the Church has labeled the work of the Devil, can in a sense be thought of that way reasonably after some thought. Science does turn some away from God, but it also draws others near Him in their work. Music can be a source of rebellion, and rock did spawn metal, which both play upon themes of darkness, rebellion, sex, drug abuse and the such. Perhaps by saying it is of the Devil, they're referring to what they then, and still see as cultural degredation and moral decay. Some take it to extremes, but in some cases I could understand this line of thinking.I agree that many things need to go in this world. Many within my faith are misunderstanding of the greater messages so simply delivered, and seem have fallen to the fate of the Pharisees of Jesus' time. But this is true of other faiths as well. To touch on an earlier subject, I'm not one to believe those without faith cannot do good, or be good in nature. I do think, generally, but not on the whole, that those without some sort of faith do not always have the best of moral compasses, and sometimes are a little more subject to ill choices. This is probably just subjective, but I think it possible. It's mostly based upon my experiences of those with a religion, and those without. Working in a Pagan store, I think I get a firsthand approach on the idea anyways. Alas, I'm going to not get aggrivated or anything, and see that we both make points, but each still have our respective opinions. Would anyone else like to discuss anything, or bring up new ideas or thoughts to this topic? Actually, pretty much all European countries are superior to America in terms of civil rights. You won't find that level of povertry, racial or sexual discrimination in any of the developed European countries, and your crime/murder statistics are up the roof. Sicilly (or whatever it's called. The island south of Italy) might be close to those statistics, with their crazy Camorra being in control and everything, but that's the exception. And SINGING about rebellion and 'darkness' is hardly a bad thing. Funny, really, how a Church that is responsible for the greatest manslaughter in human history has the right to judge a group of musicians and deem them 'evil'. Even as they labeled the blues as 'sinful' dozens of christian groups did whatever they wanted with the black population. Rape, murder, hangings and violence were commonplace even in the 20th century. And you're saying metal is a source of social decay and moral rot? Get real. Music hasn't got that kind of influence, and even if it did, black metal is UNDERGROUND music. You won't stumble upon it on MTV. Blame Britney and Kanye if you have to point fingers. Or better yet, blame mass media and the white christian population who teaches their kids to be judgemental. As for moral compasses, I have yet to meet a single Catholic who isn't a complete hypocrite. The moment you believe you have any right to judge another human being, you're wrong. And don't say 'you just judged them by calling them hypocrites!'. You can say 'those manslaughters are all in the past!', but that does not change the fact that they were ordered by 'holy' bishops and popes, who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocents on direct orders from God. Or are you denying the holiness of a dozen historical popes? Sounds like blasphemy to me. As for the crusifiction of Jesus, hey, I say, good riddance. If they hadn't off'd him, then the Romans would have invaded their lands again and gone on a regular killing spree. Also a case of 'right' versus 'good'. Kill one man -one who's just aching to become a martyr- or see their country ravaged? Communism seeks to abolish religion, to dethrone the idea of God. Its leaders under it have created wicked and evil regimes in the name of their ideas too. It isn't only religion. I think you're power tripping Kino. I listen to metal. I didn't say I personally thought it was "of the Devil." I said a general they, as in fundamentalists whom honestly believe it is. I'm looking at the way others think of things and try to see them from their perspectives. In the future, I would kindly suggest reading my posts more slowly to get an accurate account of just what I am saying. Music has more influence than you would think. Look at various subcultures and how the bands within them and their lyrics or looks influence fans. Also, I'm not going to blame WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants), nor the entire white, Christian population for these problems. I notice you exclusively refer to Catholics, and continue to write off all Christians as now being weak, judgmental and now presumably ignorant. I'm trying to be civil, but continue in the line of personal attacks or what could lead to personal attacks and I'll have to ban you. I said we've both made some points of interest and decided to let it die off without getting aggrivated. Don't keep a heated argument going, especially if you're simply going to write off an entire group under your own judgmental notions, and hold them exclusively responsible for how things are in the world, or perhaps more accurately, the U.S. Now again, I'm going to say, for all to see, we've both made some good points, for anyone that's been following or may follow this thread. However, it's getting too heated, and too personal. Let it die. Again, anyone else have any opinions or new thoughts they would like to bring to the table? Edit: I don't hold popes nor religious figures in light of being "holy." I am not Catholic, and even if I were, I would not full well believe in someone being astoundly as such.
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:38 pm
I thought we were debating personal opinons here... You argued that "Music can be a source of rebellion, and rock did spawn metal, which both play upon themes of darkness, rebellion, sex, drug abuse and the such.", so I assumed that was your opinion. But do you really think that the underground scene of metal can sway the populace? And I ask again, what does it matter how they DRESS? If a person dyes his hair black, pierces his tongue, wears leather and metal spikes and smokes pot, is he somehow evil? It's just a gimmick or a clothing preference. And when I'm talking about WASPs, I'm talking about WASPs. When I'm referring to the judgemental WASPs, I mean the JUDGEMENTAL ONES. I'm generalizing, because that's the only way to discuss things on a broad perspective, I'm not assaulting you personally. Just like you don't think that ALL non-religious people have a messed-up moral compass; you're talking about the many non-religious people that HAS a messed-up moral compass. See what I'm getting at?
I don't do personal when I debate or argue. I give my personal opinion, but I don't attack my 'opponent' directly. I still hold my view that people that cannot live life without cluthing to the idea of some make-belief God are weak, and you disagree, and that's that. It's my opinion, not a personal assault. When people of opposing views get together, opinions will clash, but it's not always personal. But that's also why I'm against large organized religions, because it's simply another reason for people all over the world to clash over. Without religion, there wouldn't have been any witch burnings, no religious censur, no Crusades, no Jihad, no Muslim extremists, no militant Christians, no Palestinian suicide bombings. Isn't that reason enough to be against religion, when it has spawned all these problems?
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:27 pm
Kino D I thought we were debating personal opinons here... You argued that "Music can be a source of rebellion, and rock did spawn metal, which both play upon themes of darkness, rebellion, sex, drug abuse and the such.", so I assumed that was your opinion. But do you really think that the underground scene of metal can sway the populace? And I ask again, what does it matter how they DRESS? If a person dyes his hair black, pierces his tongue, wears leather and metal spikes and smokes pot, is he somehow evil? It's just a gimmick or a clothing preference. And when I'm talking about WASPs, I'm talking about WASPs. When I'm referring to the judgemental WASPs, I mean the JUDGEMENTAL ONES. I'm generalizing, because that's the only way to discuss things on a broad perspective, I'm not assaulting you personally. Just like you don't think that ALL non-religious people have a messed-up moral compass; you're talking about the many non-religious people that HAS a messed-up moral compass. See what I'm getting at? I don't do personal when I debate or argue. I give my personal opinion, but I don't attack my 'opponent' directly. I still hold my view that people that cannot live life without cluthing to the idea of some make-belief God are weak, and you disagree, and that's that. It's my opinion, not a personal assault. When people of opposing views get together, opinions will clash, but it's not always personal. But that's also why I'm against large organized religions, because it's simply another reason for people all over the world to clash over. Without religion, there wouldn't have been any witch burnings, no religious censur, no Crusades, no Jihad, no Muslim extremists, no militant Christians, no Palestinian suicide bombings. Isn't that reason enough to be against religion, when it has spawned all these problems? Ah, ah. Much clearer now. It's not the style of dress either. I frequent www.christiangoth.com and personally support Christians of some, but not all, alternative lifestyles. Some of those attacks, such as the Crusades, and these bombings. Even without any inklings of religion, they could happen just based upon our differing lifestyles. We don't exactly know what would happen without them. I too, once used to be against religions, and felt similar to you. Then it just changed. I was reached out to, touched in a way spiritually. I can't explain how, or why. I just know it happened and that I've accepted it. As far as music and its influence, even "underground" music... Remember all of those church burnings in the northern countries? Black metal was pretty influential in that. Doesn't mean the genre is bad, as it sort of spawned "white metal" which is just Christian bands playing black metal. Yeah, I know, seems weird, but it's out there, haha. It's not always bad influences though. Church hymns can move a person spiritually. Though whether it's through honest faith, or if it's just the wonderful sounds of music it's hard to discern. It may have come off as personal, but towards the end of that paragraph, I mention words that would be inferred to as stating how others' opinions and lines of thinking could be seen. When concerning the metal, darkness, evil, etc. anyways. Religion has always had its problems. Extremists do this, but these same extremists often exploit other systems as well, for personal gain and dominance. I think it's inherent in them from the beginning, and religion is just another exploitable vehicle from which they do these things. If not there, they would have other things to use. I wouldn't blame religion in itself, as it's just a faith. What someone does with it however, can tarnish or beautify the faith. It's just a sad thing that happens I suppose.
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:59 pm
Of course those things can still happen, and they always will. But it's one MORE reason for such things to happen. Instead of just differing skin tones, or cultures, we now also have something as dividing as differing views on God/gods, the afterlife, how to praise these various entities, different prophets, and a history of violence between many of these religions. Religious fanatics are fanatical about their religion, y'know? If they didn't have that, maybe they wouldn't have anything to get so worked up about. Of course, that's not always the case; it's like the old Gun Control arguments; "psycopaths are psycopaths, and even if they couldn't get ahold of agun they'd just use a knife or something like that. Better if we all are allowed to carry guns to protect ourselves from those psycopaths". But that does not apply in practice. Look at the crime rates in the US where guns are involved. Those rates are only possible because there are so many guns on the market. And killing someone with a knife is a lot harder than with a gun, both physically and mentally. Not to mention you don't leave half as much evidence on the crime scene with a gun. It's the same with religious fanatics; Sure, some of them would only turn to some other cause, but most of them would never go over the edge like that. Religion, like a free gun market, makes it so much easier and more available.
Yes, this is all the work of extremists, but that changes nothing. I'm not against believing, but rather organized religions with strict rules of conduct. Especially when they can be interpreted in so many ways.
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:19 pm
I enjoy my faith, and the sight of anyone innocently enjoying theirs. But I'm sad to say what the histories of religions include. It's like a deep sigh, and a great sadness knowing what some have done, even to themselves and their own kind.
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Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:20 pm
I enjoy my faith, and the sight of anyone innocently enjoying theirs. But I'm sad to say what the histories of religions include. It's like a deep sigh, and a great sadness knowing what some have done, even to themselves and their own kind.
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:02 am
I agree, it's sad. I have no beef with Jesus or Christians, but rather with the authorities of various religions who has caused -and continues to do so- so much pain and death. That's why I earlier stated that I'm all for Buddhism, because they have no such history of violence, and they don't judge anyone. So nothing bad against people who just enjoy their religion, unless they impose their beliefs on prejudice on others. That's when things go wrong.
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Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:01 pm
Kino D I agree, it's sad. I have no beef with Jesus or Christians, but rather with the authorities of various religions who has caused -and continues to do so- so much pain and death. That's why I earlier stated that I'm all for Buddhism, because they have no such history of violence, and they don't judge anyone. So nothing bad against people who just enjoy their religion, unless they impose their beliefs on prejudice on others. That's when things go wrong. Burger King is kind of imposing... "Taste our whopper and say it's better than the Big Mac or we'll kill you virgin taste testers!"
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Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:22 am
(Like Tom Hanks in Forrest Gump) And that's all I've got to say about that.
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Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:44 pm
Kino D I agree, it's sad. I have no beef with Jesus or Christians, but rather with the authorities of various religions who has caused -and continues to do so- so much pain and death. That's why I earlier stated that I'm all for Buddhism, because they have no such history of violence, and they don't judge anyone. So nothing bad against people who just enjoy their religion, unless they impose their beliefs on prejudice on others. That's when things go wrong. I have to disagree with you there people who practiced buddhism have been violent in the past. The Chinese BEFORE THEY TURNED INTO COMMIS. How do you think Thailand retained independence when there neighbors were conquered. Don't go catagorizing people based on religon because 99% of people who claim they are religous don't follow it to a "T"
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