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 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:31 pm
well spike was kinda screwed up back then what with living with his mom and torn b/w her and drusilla. but he was jsut trying to help his mom so there's nothing wrong with that
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:41 pm
Perhaps I should clarify: it's not that he turned his mother that bugs me, it's the unnaturally close relationship he had with his ill mother. So close was their relationship that when Spike was turned, the first thought on his mind was turning his mother so that they could spend eternity together. He wanted to bring his mother with him and his girlfriend.. who does that?
Secondly, consider this. Spike's oddly intimate and definetly co-dependant relationship with his sickly mother; Spike's intimate and defintely co-dependant relationship with his sickly girlfriend, Dru.
Consider:
Spike's mother: "You shouldn't be alone. You need a woman in your life."
William/Spike: "(looks at his mother) I have a woman in my life."
Also consider, Spike's vampified mother said it herself:
MOTHER: ".... Do you think you'll be able to love her [Drusilla]? (leans too close to William) Think you'll be able to touch her without feeling me? (William looks around, panicked and disgusted, for a way to escape this disturbing situation) All you ever wanted was to be back inside. (touches his face, his body) You finally got your wish, didn't you? Sank your teeth into me. An eternal kiss."
WILLIAM: (shakes his head) "No. I only wanted to make you well."
MOTHER: "You wanted your hands on me. Perhaps you'd like a chance to finish off what you started."
True, vampires lie, but remember what Anya once said "Demons don't always lie, sometimes the truth is worse."
I'm not saying it was a bad thing that he turned his mother, I'm saying I wonder if he's got a bit of an Oedipus complex.
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:49 pm
aloysius snuffleupagus Perhaps I should clarify: it's not that he turned his mother that bugs me, it's the unnaturally close relationship he had with his ill mother. So close was their relationship that when Spike was turned, the first thought on his mind was turning his mother so that they could spend eternity together. He wanted to bring his mother with him and his girlfriend.. who does that? Secondly, consider this. Spike's oddly intimate and definetly co-dependant relationship with his sickly mother; Spike's intimate and defintely co-dependant relationship with his sickly girlfriend, Dru. Consider: Spike's mother: "You shouldn't be alone. You need a woman in your life." William/Spike: "(looks at his mother) I have a woman in my life." Also consider, Spike's vampified mother said it herself: MOTHER: ".... Do you think you'll be able to love her [Drusilla]? (leans too close to William) Think you'll be able to touch her without feeling me? (William looks around, panicked and disgusted, for a way to escape this disturbing situation) All you ever wanted was to be back inside. (touches his face, his body) You finally got your wish, didn't you? Sank your teeth into me. An eternal kiss." WILLIAM: (shakes his head) "No. I only wanted to make you well." MOTHER: "You wanted your hands on me. Perhaps you'd like a chance to finish off what you started." True, vampires lie, but remember what Anya once said "Demons don't always lie, sometimes the truth is worse." I'm not saying it was a bad thing that he turned his mother, I'm saying I wonder if he's got a bit of an Oedipus complex. it is a weird thing.he was such a geek.i dont know why someone would do that.not at all.
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:31 pm
aloysius snuffleupagus Perhaps I should clarify: it's not that he turned his mother that bugs me, it's the unnaturally close relationship he had with his ill mother. So close was their relationship that when Spike was turned, the first thought on his mind was turning his mother so that they could spend eternity together. He wanted to bring his mother with him and his girlfriend.. who does that? Secondly, consider this. Spike's oddly intimate and definetly co-dependant relationship with his sickly mother; Spike's intimate and defintely co-dependant relationship with his sickly girlfriend, Dru. Consider: Spike's mother: "You shouldn't be alone. You need a woman in your life." William/Spike: "(looks at his mother) I have a woman in my life." Also consider, Spike's vampified mother said it herself: MOTHER: ".... Do you think you'll be able to love her [Drusilla]? (leans too close to William) Think you'll be able to touch her without feeling me? (William looks around, panicked and disgusted, for a way to escape this disturbing situation) All you ever wanted was to be back inside. (touches his face, his body) You finally got your wish, didn't you? Sank your teeth into me. An eternal kiss." WILLIAM: (shakes his head) "No. I only wanted to make you well." MOTHER: "You wanted your hands on me. Perhaps you'd like a chance to finish off what you started." True, vampires lie, but remember what Anya once said "Demons don't always lie, sometimes the truth is worse." I'm not saying it was a bad thing that he turned his mother, I'm saying I wonder if he's got a bit of an Oedipus complex.
(I'm probably the only one who understands your Oedipus reference. But you do know that Oedipus married his mother unknowingly. 3nodding )
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:35 pm
Seika Hinode Yes, true that whole situation was way too weird. But I think Spike did it in the best intention. He wanted to make his mother healthy again. It was just out of a child's love for his mother, nothing more. And we all know that Spike isn't the brightest crayon in the crayon box, so he probably didn't think turning his mother wasn't wrong on any level. And it was just the demons in his mother talking, not her, so what she said was nothing real.
(I'm probably the only one who understands your Oedipus reference. But you do know that Oedipus married his mother unknowingly. 3nodding ) I agree, I think he did do it because he wanted to see her healthy and make her happy. But that doesn't preclude him having....ahem...unusual feelings for his mother. To be honest, his relationship with his mother, in and of itself, doesn't bug me so much. It's the odd similarities that said relationship has to his relationship with Drusilla that really creeps me out. I can't help but feel that he may have replaced his helpless mother with a helpless girlfriend. (And, remember, Freud's Oedipus complex is characterized as indentification with the father and a libidinous desire for the mother.) But, anyway, this is completely off topic. sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:22 pm
Well Spike didn't have a father figure around (at least not what was shown in the show) so I find it natural that he'd be so loving to his mother. And about Dru, she wasn't sickly until the 2nd Season after they had left Prague. Or are you talking about her mental sicklyness? confused But anyways if you think it's weird that Spike would love her as a girlfriend even though she was his sire, aka "vampire mother" just look at Angel and Darla. Darla was Angelus's "vampire mother" and it didn't seem anything too weird. But anyways back to Spike, I think he just cared for Dru because he had to care for his mother, and that as William because he had no father figure that he had to take the role as the mother to help his sick mother. I dunno, it's all kinda confusing...but I don't believe Spike had that Oedipus complex. sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:42 pm
No, I actually hadn't even thought of the vampire mother thing.
But, you did kind of say exactly what I was thinking:
"...I think he just cared for Dru because he had to care for his mother, and that as William because he had no father figure that he had to take the role as the mother to help his sick mother."
He took on the role of his father to his mother (aka, husband to wife) while caring for her. The relationship certainly wasn't sexual, of course, but the way I see it, after his mother died, Spike replaced her with Dru (and her mental sicklyness, as you put it). He created a new husband/wife relationship with Dru instead of with his mother.
Perhaps it's not so much an oedipus complex as it is codependency.
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:21 pm
Hmmm. See,I veiw it more as the Spike needs someone to depend on. He cant HANDLE being alone, as he never was. I really dont think there was anything to the mother/son thing. It's more, he NEEDS someone that he can take CARE of. Heeds someone who is dependent on him in some way, but yet isnt. If that makes any sense. Okay. Um. Its like, he needs that part where he takes care of someone that only needs it on one level, but then can be stronger on other levels then him. Think of it this way. He became in love with Buffy AFTER he started to help her, and 'protect' her from stuff. Like the Riley thing, that was him 'helping' Buffy(and a bid for himself). And then when she is havnig emotional problems. TO sum it up, he needs someone that Is strong, yet weak. Er..yeah.
And he actully means that Angel is his grandsire. Sire is just a term used for family, or for mentor. If I'm not mistaken Angel used some refrence of siring about the master. Could be mistaken. However, it is quite clear of the line. Especially since Spike never even met Angel and Darla till AFTER the fact.
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:48 pm
Good point. Like I said, Spike definetely seems codependent. I think now that I was wrong to suggest that Spike had an Oedipus complex. After reading your post, Shadow__dancer, I checked wikipedia's entry on codependency. It agrees with you almost exactly. Quote: Codependence can also be a set of maladaptive, compulsive behaviors learned by family members in order to survive in a family which is experiencing great emotional pain and stress caused, for example, by a family member's alcoholism or other addiction, sexual or other abuse within the family, a family members' chronic illness, or forces external to the family, such as poverty. As adults, codependent people have a greater tendency to get involved in relationships with people who are perhaps unreliable, emotionally unavailable, or needy. And the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the relationship without addressing their own needs or desires, they set themselves up for continued unfulfillment. Sorry, razorgod, for hijacking your thread. sweatdrop
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:03 am
Um, back to the original question, Angelus might not have directly sired Spike, but I think that he may have played the role of sire. Drusilla, being insane, would not have been able to teach and train Spike very well. Angelus was the one that played the role of sire after Spike was turned, even if he didn't do the act himself.
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Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:22 pm
Nienna of the Valar Um, back to the original question, Angelus might not have directly sired Spike, but I think that he may have played the role of sire. Drusilla, being insane, would not have been able to teach and train Spike very well. Angelus was the one that played the role of sire after Spike was turned, even if he didn't do the act himself. Good point. Spike did call Angel his Yoda. I haven't seen Star Wars, but I think Yoda was more of a teacher to... Skywalker(?) than a father... right? sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:07 pm
IIRC Spike was meant to be killed off by Angel when he first went bad so that's why Angel was his original Sire. Then when the character was popular and added to the show later it was changed to Drusilla.
Truthfully it doesn't bother me that much that they changed it since any long running show is going to pick up a few plotholes along the way.
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:44 am
That has always bugged me! At least it generated a great line, "You were my sire, man; you were my...Yoda!" he he...always cracked me up.
You can usually count on Joss to make sure things work correctly, but what really bothered me was how Angel's age jumped up and down, depending on what season it was. I still don't think I know his true age. confused
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:48 am
aloysius snuffleupagus Sorry, razorgod, for hijacking your thread. sweatdrop Naw, I'm enjoying this. Thanks.
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:52 am
Nienna of the Valar Um, back to the original question, Angelus might not have directly sired Spike, but I think that he may have played the role of sire. Drusilla, being insane, would not have been able to teach and train Spike very well. Angelus was the one that played the role of sire after Spike was turned, even if he didn't do the act himself. This is probably the best explanation I've read. In all the Vampire movies and games I've played, the sire was the term used for the one who actually turned the Vampire. So I really hate the idea of "Grand sires". I like this explanation the best. I think some other people might of been trying to say this, but the wording you used is perfect. Thanks.
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