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 Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:57 pm
We've always had sizeable numbers of people who don't speak English in the US.
First it was the Germans. German was a major language until WW1.
We had Irish.
We had Chinese in the West
We have Spanish in the west and that has grown.
More recently since the 60s we have languages from Asia as people were actually able to come from there after the ban was lifted.
Bilungualism has always been a part of our nation's history but so to has opposition to any language but the dominant one.
Keep in mind that in our nation's history we've had enclaves of non-english speakers. They made their won settlements and lived apart.
The fear of bilingualism is pretty much baseless considering that the fear has been around for hundreds of years.
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:56 pm
Omnileech We've always had sizeable numbers of people who don't speak English in the US. First it was the Germans. German was a major language until WW1. We had Irish. We had Chinese in the West We have Spanish in the west and that has grown. More recently since the 60s we have languages from Asia as people were actually able to come from there after the ban was lifted. Bilungualism has always been a part of our nation's history but so to has opposition to any language but the dominant one. Keep in mind that in our nation's history we've had enclaves of non-english speakers. They made their won settlements and lived apart. The fear of bilingualism is pretty much baseless considering that the fear has been around for hundreds of years. I'm a first generation American and I'd have to say that there are many people who are trying to learn how to speak English, but simply don't have the time to do so. For example, it might be better to learn Spanish (for all of those who live out in California) to better serve the people you dela with.
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:14 pm
Our educational system in regards to bilingual education is a complete joke.
Nobody's going to have any sort of production of a foreign language from what we teach.
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:44 pm
Sam Skip Sam The real problem with language is that people have been used to speaking English in America for centuries-- its seen as an offensive threat when a large number of people aren't speaking English and are frustrated that the people who have been here for generations don't speak their language come in and impose. People said that about the Germans, but I don't see everyone eating sauerkraut and shouting in a very angry language. Except New Yorkers, but they aren't really people so they don't count.
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Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:27 pm
Omnileech We've always had sizeable numbers of people who don't speak English in the US. First it was the Germans. German was a major language until WW1. We had Irish. We had Chinese in the West We have Spanish in the west and that has grown. More recently since the 60s we have languages from Asia as people were actually able to come from there after the ban was lifted. Bilungualism has always been a part of our nation's history but so to has opposition to any language but the dominant one. Keep in mind that in our nation's history we've had enclaves of non-english speakers. They made their won settlements and lived apart. The fear of bilingualism is pretty much baseless considering that the fear has been around for hundreds of years. It's all about not getting to the point of "Press 2 for English." The official language of the country is English, minorities aside, so I don't understand why there's such a fuss when someone puts a "English only" sign in the window of their shop. This country runs on the English language, and the barrier of the growing spanish influence is creating tension.
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:33 am
Sam Skip Sam It's all about not getting to the point of "Press 2 for English." The official language of the country is English, minorities aside, so I don't understand why there's such a fuss when someone puts a "English only" sign in the window of their shop. This country runs on the English language, and the barrier of the growing spanish influence is creating tension.
Besides that, we're looking at a rather small percentage of the american population that is unable to speak any english. Definitely not enough to be 'creating tension'. 2000 Census 2003 Census (Table 47 + ) A good 80%+ of Americans come from English-only families.
The fuss about this whole "english only" business is that it is discrimination which is generally considered to be a bad thing. Louisiana has laws providing for the use of English and French but you rarely hear people making a big deal over that. :/ America isn't concerned with perserving its language, this is just a case of mexican-hatin'.
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:09 am
Sam Skip Sam Omnileech We've always had sizeable numbers of people who don't speak English in the US. First it was the Germans. German was a major language until WW1. We had Irish. We had Chinese in the West We have Spanish in the west and that has grown. More recently since the 60s we have languages from Asia as people were actually able to come from there after the ban was lifted. Bilungualism has always been a part of our nation's history but so to has opposition to any language but the dominant one. Keep in mind that in our nation's history we've had enclaves of non-english speakers. They made their won settlements and lived apart. The fear of bilingualism is pretty much baseless considering that the fear has been around for hundreds of years. It's all about not getting to the point of "Press 2 for English." The official language of the country is English, minorities aside, so I don't understand why there's such a fuss when someone puts a "English only" sign in the window of their shop. This country runs on the English language, and the barrier of the growing spanish influence is creating tension. Oh that's such a load of bull. This country has no official language, individual states might, but the country, as a whole, does not. And barrier? What barrier? The bigger barrier have seen in my time in ARIZONA, is the fact that so many people speak RUSSIAN here. IT's ******** annoying to be working in the bakery nad come out and have some a*****e blabber at me in Russian, or English with such a thick Russian accent I end up just asking them if they want vodka or borscht. ******** that s**t, get rid of the Russian's before you pick on the Mexicans. At least the Mexican's DO s**t around here.
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:23 am
Sam Skip Sam Your Inner Nerd Border fences are silly. It's like when a five year old builds a Lego fort and won't let anyone else play in the fort with them. But I don't approve of illegal immigration or amnesty, so I guess extreme - albeit childish - things need to be done. Agreed. Mexico is acting childish via the droves of people crossing the border illegally. Childishly, we must respond by preventing it. I honestly think that freely opening the border would be disastrous for the country. We have enough problems with unemployment, overdevelopment, health care shortage, etc. etc. without saying "HEY COME IN THE BORDERS ARE OPEN!" Eventually we'll just rename the U.S. "North Mexico" and then everyone will be heading up to Canada. Edit: Citizenship is a good way to curb this as long as the immigrants are paying taxes and supporting the country in return for the services they receive and the space they take up. Learning English wouldn't hurt either. [/rant] Well, like I said: if an extreme measure needs to be taken then so be it. And yes, allowing people to continue crossing illegally would be even worse for the economy - and my wallet - I never said that I appreciated paying for an illegal immigrant's healthcare when I've got my own issues to worry about. But a fence that doesn't cover the whole border? Either do the entire job or don't do it at all. As for learning English? And a "growing Spanish influence creating tension"? That's slightly xenophobic and last I checked, this country doesn't run entirely on English. And I don't really think it ever has, actually... I'm sure Omnileech's list provided enough examples of that. And there's no real attack on the English language, so I don't think it's that big a deal. If anything, the bilingualism gives Americans a unique sort of culture. There are very few countries with so many different languages and dialects.
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:01 pm
I agree.. the problem with a partial border is that illegal immigrants will stay here longer because it is more risky to go back and forth.
I hope I'm not coming off xenophobic, because I stated the "spanish tension" comment as an observation of what's going on in the country. I don't know how many people weighing in on the issue live in an area that is currently heavily influenced by immigration, but I believe that is a difference that must be taken into account when considering the basis of opinions on the issue.
It's common for countries to dislike or look down on immigrants or visitors who don't make an attempt to learn the official language(s) of the country. Additionally, showing an attempt to gain knowledge of the language is often looked at with great respect and draws help. It's true here, and its true overseas; try going to France.
The thing that just irks me is the families at work at my last job, when I worked near the factory. They don't give a s**t about this country's principles, history, language, or community. They just huddle together and make snarky remarks in their native language about the Americans who can't understand them. This "tension" isn't just from people feeling like their territory is being stepped on. I've observed it coming from just generally unwarranted hostility and gang-like behavior from the people immigrating here in the region.
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:23 pm
I do think a partial border is even more wasteful than a full border. Just bad logic that.
I've been out of the country. I spoke very, very little of the native language. I was treated respectfully and listened to despite my little knowledge of the language. Instead of rudeness towards me, I found that people often were helping me to understand what was going on and trying not to exclude me just because I did not speak the language.
I've lived in high-immigrant areas in the past, though I do not currently. I have several friends who are here legally, but parents came here illegally. I've never hard any problems with these immigrants. Nor do I see a problem with them "huddle together and making snarky remarks in their native language about the Americans " I huddle together with my friends and make snarky comments about the Americans who can't understand us, and in general comments about how much we dislike the americans we find ourselves surrounded by. This countries "principles, history, language, or community" are varying. Our principles have changed greatly from those our founding fathers held. Our history isn't really even all that old, and isn't American, it is the history of the immigrants who have come to this country. And our language doesn't exist. We have a majority of english speakers, that does not make it our language, by all accounts, the official language of the US should belong to the Native Americans, after all, they were here first, or if not them, Portugual gets second dibs as Christopher Columbus sailed under the Portuguese flag when he discovered america. America had language long before the British came with their English, and since then, has continued to have a myriad of langauges.
I have had more trouble and hostility from US born residents than I have ever had from immigrants.
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:47 pm
It's ridiculous and unnecessary. Just enforce the laws we currently have. Get more high-tech technology for security. The great wall of China anyone?
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:48 pm
Well except for the northern boarder. Is the fence for there or just the southern? If you don't do it for all your boarders you're wasting your time and money and resources. Marsupial I too am for open borders. I think a border fence is a horrible idea, especially a border fence that leaves the majority of the area open, that's bad and a waste of money.
People concentrate on boundaries too much. ): It focuses them on "their own people" and devalues the lives of others methinks. Boo ethnocentrism.
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:53 pm
I've got one word: corporations. Omnileech Well you know me. I'm the one with the sensible and pragmatic solutions. We allow more people into the US legally and cut down dramatically on waiting times. We focus more energy on the people who do not want to come to the US legally no matter how easily they can do it. Drug dealers, human trafficers, and other criminals. Then you can speed up assimilation by making a more comprehensive educational effort towards the children and the adults. You need to make it bilingua and you can't stigmatize like so many peop,le have been doing. There's nothing wrong with ballots in another language nor forms that aren't in English.
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:55 pm
So how is it a problem if it's them speaking to each other or in their own homes etc? In my opinion everyone should have to know two languages if they're going to live here: Spanish and English. From my experiences they're the most used in the country. Especially if you're going to eventually be in a field like business or law enforcement or something like that. I understand if it was with work or school for example but if it's just to each other or your own time and home then it shouldn't be anyone's business. Sam Skip Sam The real problem with language is that people have been used to speaking English in America for centuries-- its seen as an offensive threat when a large number of people aren't speaking English and are frustrated that the people who have been here for generations don't speak their language come in and impose.
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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:58 pm
Official language? So you can cite a law that states that? The last time I checked there was no such thing. Sam Skip Sam Omnileech We've always had sizeable numbers of people who don't speak English in the US. First it was the Germans. German was a major language until WW1. We had Irish. We had Chinese in the West We have Spanish in the west and that has grown. More recently since the 60s we have languages from Asia as people were actually able to come from there after the ban was lifted. Bilungualism has always been a part of our nation's history but so to has opposition to any language but the dominant one. Keep in mind that in our nation's history we've had enclaves of non-english speakers. They made their won settlements and lived apart. The fear of bilingualism is pretty much baseless considering that the fear has been around for hundreds of years. It's all about not getting to the point of "Press 2 for English." The official language of the country is English, minorities aside, so I don't understand why there's such a fuss when someone puts a "English only" sign in the window of their shop. This country runs on the English language, and the barrier of the growing spanish influence is creating tension.
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Reply
