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 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:15 am
Invictus_88 Shinta Hitokiri Invictus_88 Cut skin, yes. But break bone?
Nah. The tip of the whip is breaking the sound barrier, and going faster than some bullets. With a ten or twelve foot bullwhip, you can do some serious damage, including breaking bones.
It also has negligible mass, you see.So are you saying that you don't believe the cause of the sound or simply disbelieve the possibility of it being able to break bone? It's not the whip that does the cutting, but the vacuum it creates, and the force of the actual point hitting during that can cause the breakage of a bone because it kills the resisitance. Last I checked, something going over 1400ft/sec generally counts as an object that can do some major damage. Plus, it only takes 8lbs of force to break the strongest bone in the human body. With a ten foot bullwhip, which technically has a 13 foot range, the force that would accumulate at the end of the whip during the sonic boom would be incredible.
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:54 pm
Shinta Hitokiri Invictus_88 Shinta Hitokiri Invictus_88 Cut skin, yes. But break bone?
Nah. The tip of the whip is breaking the sound barrier, and going faster than some bullets. With a ten or twelve foot bullwhip, you can do some serious damage, including breaking bones.
It also has negligible mass, you see.So are you saying that you don't believe the cause of the sound or simply disbelieve the possibility of it being able to break bone? It's not the whip that does the cutting, but the vacuum it creates, and the force of the actual point hitting during that can cause the breakage of a bone because it kills the resisitance. Last I checked, something going over 1400ft/sec generally counts as an object that can do some major damage. Plus, it only takes 8lbs of force to break the strongest bone in the human body. With a ten foot bullwhip, which technically has a 13 foot range, the force that would accumulate at the end of the whip during the sonic boom would be incredible.
Force of impact requires speed and mass, or more accurately given the nature of a bone, density of mass.
Low speed high mass is a nudge not a break. (A lorry pushing you at 3mph.)
Low speed low mass is a mere touch. (A scarf dropped around your shoulders.)
High speed high mass is a break. (Rifle round, sword blow.)
High speed low mass is not a break, perhaps a cut. (Whipcrack, paintball shot, small hailstone.)
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Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:36 pm
Just to point something out, a rifle round isn't particularly heavy. I'd say a whip is considerably heavier.
Although, the nature of the strike is very, very different, as the weight is shifting backward for the crack, so it becomes a hit, and not so much a penetration. Then again, we also have to take into consideration where the strike lands, and what the joints are doing. If the person is tensing their joints, it is much more likely to break.
I can't say I know the physics, so I won't deny either argument. I do, however, think you should rephrase your argument.
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:21 am
Die Blutgrafin Just to point something out, a rifle round isn't particularly heavy. I'd say a whip is considerably heavier. Although, the nature of the strike is very, very different, as the weight is shifting backward for the crack, so it becomes a hit, and not so much a penetration. Then again, we also have to take into consideration where the strike lands, and what the joints are doing. If the person is tensing their joints, it is much more likely to break. I can't say I know the physics, so I won't deny either argument. I do, however, think you should rephrase your argument.
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:43 am
I would say damage-wise, sure, why not.
I've seen what whips can do, and they sure as hell don't look like they tickle.
o.o
But in all practicality, it can take years to learn how to do some amazing stunts.
(like crack it an inch from your nose)
And you can hurt yourself pretty badly while using them.
I know, I ended up with a HUUUGE welt because a friend was trying to teach me how to use them.
So while I will say that it is a legitimate weapon, I'm gonna have to say that it should only be used by those who have trained extensively on it.
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:01 pm
Die Blutgrafin Just to point something out, a rifle round isn't particularly heavy. I'd say a whip is considerably heavier. Although, the nature of the strike is very, very different, as the weight is shifting backward for the crack, so it becomes a hit, and not so much a penetration. Then again, we also have to take into consideration where the strike lands, and what the joints are doing. If the person is tensing their joints, it is much more likely to break. I can't say I know the physics, so I won't deny either argument. I do, however, think you should rephrase your argument. Glad to see that you understand what I'm saying. The weight doesn't shift backward for the crack, though. After a whip cracks, if you don't tug the whip, it will fall to the ground at the length that you cracked it at. The idea is that you throw a loop down the length of the whip which gains velocity until it breaks the sound barrier with the crack.
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:03 pm
Invictus_88 Die Blutgrafin Just to point something out, a rifle round isn't particularly heavy. I'd say a whip is considerably heavier. Although, the nature of the strike is very, very different, as the weight is shifting backward for the crack, so it becomes a hit, and not so much a penetration. Then again, we also have to take into consideration where the strike lands, and what the joints are doing. If the person is tensing their joints, it is much more likely to break. I can't say I know the physics, so I won't deny either argument. I do, however, think you should rephrase your argument. As I already said, the cut is from the vacuum, not the tip of the whip. The sonic boom breaks down nearly all of the resisitance in the target, and the tip itself is able to hit with enough force to cause a break. Besides, I would think that the whipmaker that I'm getting mine from, who happens to be the best in Australia, would know, otherwise he wouldn't warn that whips can break bone on his website. He's beeing doing whip work for nigh all his life, and I would imagine he has more experince with whips, and has probably seen something of the like happen.
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:06 pm
goddess_elppy I would say damage-wise, sure, why not.
I've seen what whips can do, and they sure as hell don't look like they tickle.
o.o
But in all practicality, it can take years to learn how to do some amazing stunts.
(like crack it an inch from your nose)
And you can hurt yourself pretty badly while using them.
I know, I ended up with a HUUUGE welt because a friend was trying to teach me how to use them.
So while I will say that it is a legitimate weapon, I'm gonna have to say that it should only be used by those who have trained extensively on it. It's actually surprisingly easy to crack a whip, actually. The idea is that yo make the motion and let the whip do the cracking. Most people try to force it, and that makes the whip more erratic.
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:19 pm
Shinta Hitokiri goddess_elppy I would say damage-wise, sure, why not.
I've seen what whips can do, and they sure as hell don't look like they tickle.
o.o
But in all practicality, it can take years to learn how to do some amazing stunts.
(like crack it an inch from your nose)
And you can hurt yourself pretty badly while using them.
I know, I ended up with a HUUUGE welt because a friend was trying to teach me how to use them.
So while I will say that it is a legitimate weapon, I'm gonna have to say that it should only be used by those who have trained extensively on it. It's actually surprisingly easy to crack a whip, actually. The idea is that yo make the motion and let the whip do the cracking. Most people try to force it, and that makes the whip more erratic.
Yeah... but I was actually referring to accuracy, not really just cracking it.
I'd never ever ever ever ever trust someone who had one in their hands for the first time to split a piece of paper I'm holding in my mouth.
But I've done that with a guy who'd spent five years learning how to do that trick.
It takes a lot of time and effort to be able to use one effectively in battle.
But I'm not doubting what they can do.
Those things hurt like a mofo when you do them wrong... I can't imagine how much more they'd sting if you managed to do them RIGHT.
O.o;;;
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Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:35 pm
goddess_elppy Shinta Hitokiri goddess_elppy I would say damage-wise, sure, why not.
I've seen what whips can do, and they sure as hell don't look like they tickle.
o.o
But in all practicality, it can take years to learn how to do some amazing stunts.
(like crack it an inch from your nose)
And you can hurt yourself pretty badly while using them.
I know, I ended up with a HUUUGE welt because a friend was trying to teach me how to use them.
So while I will say that it is a legitimate weapon, I'm gonna have to say that it should only be used by those who have trained extensively on it. It's actually surprisingly easy to crack a whip, actually. The idea is that yo make the motion and let the whip do the cracking. Most people try to force it, and that makes the whip more erratic.
Yeah... but I was actually referring to accuracy, not really just cracking it.
I'd never ever ever ever ever trust someone who had one in their hands for the first time to split a piece of paper I'm holding in my mouth.
But I've done that with a guy who'd spent five years learning how to do that trick.
It takes a lot of time and effort to be able to use one effectively in battle.
But I'm not doubting what they can do.
Those things hurt like a mofo when you do them wrong... I can't imagine how much more they'd sting if you managed to do them RIGHT.
O.o;;;
Exactly. Granted, my line of thinking when using a whip is also to have a weapon inside of the range of it, like a good knife at the very least, for if you were to effectively bind an opponent, because that gives you time to rush in.
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:28 pm
Shinta Hitokiri Invictus_88 Die Blutgrafin Just to point something out, a rifle round isn't particularly heavy. I'd say a whip is considerably heavier. Although, the nature of the strike is very, very different, as the weight is shifting backward for the crack, so it becomes a hit, and not so much a penetration. Then again, we also have to take into consideration where the strike lands, and what the joints are doing. If the person is tensing their joints, it is much more likely to break. I can't say I know the physics, so I won't deny either argument. I do, however, think you should rephrase your argument. As I already said, the cut is from the vacuum, not the tip of the whip. The sonic boom breaks down nearly all of the resisitance in the target, and the tip itself is able to hit with enough force to cause a break. Besides, I would think that the whipmaker that I'm getting mine from, who happens to be the best in Australia, would know, otherwise he wouldn't warn that whips can break bone on his website. He's beeing doing whip work for nigh all his life, and I would imagine he has more experince with whips, and has probably seen something of the like happen.
xd
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Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:11 pm
Invictus_88 Shinta Hitokiri Invictus_88 Die Blutgrafin Just to point something out, a rifle round isn't particularly heavy. I'd say a whip is considerably heavier. Although, the nature of the strike is very, very different, as the weight is shifting backward for the crack, so it becomes a hit, and not so much a penetration. Then again, we also have to take into consideration where the strike lands, and what the joints are doing. If the person is tensing their joints, it is much more likely to break. I can't say I know the physics, so I won't deny either argument. I do, however, think you should rephrase your argument. As I already said, the cut is from the vacuum, not the tip of the whip. The sonic boom breaks down nearly all of the resisitance in the target, and the tip itself is able to hit with enough force to cause a break. Besides, I would think that the whipmaker that I'm getting mine from, who happens to be the best in Australia, would know, otherwise he wouldn't warn that whips can break bone on his website. He's beeing doing whip work for nigh all his life, and I would imagine he has more experince with whips, and has probably seen something of the like happen.
xd I'd hardly call a ten foot whip a "tiny" one, for one thing, and the cracker is not a "clicky bit," as you try to belittle it. A vacuum between layers of compressed air can cut even more precisely than a blade. It creates a cut that looks too perfect, and usually they bleed differently than other wounds, in that they have a second that the wound is open before it starts bleeding, unlike blade wounds that will be bleeding long before the blade exits, which usually tears the skin at some point, to begin with.
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Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:49 am
You're talking supersonic, which means you can only be talking about the cracker at the end, as such the idea of you breaking a bone with it or the vacuum behind it is laughable.
I wasn't contending that it could potentially break the skin, I've been explaining to you that to break bone is impossible.
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Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:36 am
Invictus_88 You're talking supersonic, which means you can only be talking about the cracker at the end, as such the idea of you breaking a bone with it or the vacuum behind it is laughable.
I wasn't contending that it could potentially break the skin, I've been explaining to you that to break bone is impossible. Once again, wrong. It only takes seven pounds of pressure to break most bones in the body. Besides, one also has to keep to mind that the fall is going nigh the same speed, and as I already formentioned, the force that hits behind the sonic boom is incredible. You keep ignoring the physics of it, and try passing it off as laughable because you don't understand what's behind it. I think personally that your blatant ignorance is laughable, to be honest. Let me see how many quotes I can find within a couple minutes. Firstly, from "http://swordswallower.org/whipartistry.html": "When a bullwhip cracks it is traveling at over 750 mph. The tip of the whip is in fact breaking the sound barrier by ripping through the air creating a vacuum. Air then rushes in to fill that vacuum. This creates a noise known as a sonic boom. That is the loud bang you hear. Moving at that speed the whip has enough power to tear apart flesh and even break bone." From "http://www.delongis.com/indalo/whip.html": "The ability to harness the speed and power of a whip is exhilarating and dangerous. It can slice through skin, break bone and permanently damage eyes in unskilled and/or careless hands. But in the hands of a skilled artist, it can be a dance." From Aussie Whip Makers: "These whips are not toys and can cause considerable pain, cut flesh and break bones. When a whip cracks the tip is travelling at over 1400 feet per second. Faster than the speed of sound and in some cases faster than a speeding bullet. The bang produced by a whip when it cracks is actually the end of the whip breaking the sound barrier. The bang is a mini sonic boom. Should your whip hit anything or anyone when it cracks it is quite capable of cutting flesh and breaking bones. Be careful!" Somehow I doubt that there would be such warnings from professionals with whips if it were so impossible as you claim.
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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:13 am
No, I think you're missing a subtle distincion.
I'm saying the supersonic tip cannot break bone. And this is true, it cannot possibly.
I am not disputing that a bone could be broken by a bullwhip.
These are not incompatible, because the part of the whip that could break a bone is not the part that breaks the sound barrier, it is the part going at fast-subsonic but with the mass to present the sort of pressure that breaks bone.
Yes? I'm not in disagreement with your quoted authorities, I'm in disagreement with your claim that the bonebreaking is in any way connected to the supersonic bit of string at the end of the whip.
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