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 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:58 pm
I have to agree with uryu. for once.
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Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:04 pm
uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Actually, the SKS is damn near perfect for survival. It's fairly accurate, it's dead reliable, has a bayonet, shoots a common round, and doesn't cost $1000 wink It has fewer points of failure, though still more than a manual-action. My survival gun is a sixty-year-old KOREA gun evil Let's see your AR work in the mud, dirt, grime, and NEVER get cleaned. And for less than $500, to boot. Oh yeah, and you can only use one magazine. Last I checked, for survival, simplicity is best, and you don't need the latest, most expensive whizbangs to do it. I'd trust my life to my 60-year-old Mosin Nagant. I'd trust my life to my 60-year-old M1 Carbine. I'd trust my life to my $250 Mossberg 500. Hell, I'd trust my life to my Savage BSE Model H SxS 20 gauge. They're perfectly suitable, and require little care and are reliable in the biggest number of environments. If I had an SKS, I'd trust it too. Hell, my survival guns are a 60 year-old KOREA gun and a WWI-designed pistol! If it's all you've got, cool. He said he has both a Mossy 500 and an AR-10 carbine. I'd take either one of those over an SKS, starting with the Mossberg (though I do prefer Remington). The Mossberg actually has several key features over the Remington 870. The elevator is up and out of the way for 90% or so of the loading process. If you've ever got your thumb caught under the elevator on a Remington, you'd appreciate the design. It has two extractors for reliability. The Remington has a dust cover. Quote: The "rougher" build (AKA slightly looser tolerances) allows more tolerance for fouling and dirt. The Mossberg 500 (and later 590 as an enhanced version) were actually issued in one branch of the Military, and were only recently replaced with the Bennelli. It's an extremely simple design that looks like it could handle some serious abuse. Only hard thing to do with it is put the elevator back in, because the safety is positioned just so, RIGHT in the way. One millimeter on, and it wouldn't give any trouble. The original Masterkey system was an 870, sawed off and stockless, with a 'Ceiner adaptor' to mount it. Quote: I would definitely take the SKS over the AR-10. Direct gas impingement .308? After shooting my fair share of .308, no thank you. Usually large, sometimes heavy, and the magazines can be pretty big too (pretty much the reasons I wouldn't grab an FAL, either) I ******** hate clips. Finicky little shits that never work right, at least for me. I either jam it at two or three rounds, or slice my hand open. And it should be noted that Bushmaster makes a gas piston carbine kit, so he could upgrade for a couple hundred bucks. And it should also be noted that the AR-10 IS a military rifle in several countries. The only reason it lost out here in the US was that we were looking to downsize our rounds. Nobody made a good rifle, so the M14 stayed. Then Stoner came back with the AR-15 and ended the M14's 15 minutes of fame. Quote: The pros of a rifle over a shotgun have been debated countless times, you ought to know them by now. Smaller ammo, more capacity, more potential on distances and accuracy. The biggest magazine I've found without some ungodly monstrosity bolted on (like the sidewinder, or those auto-indexing tubes)is 8 rounds, and that stuck out a bit. And they are all manual-load, too. The SKS has a 10-round magazine, that can be loaded with clips or by hand, and CAN also be topped off if they really want to. Remington makes one model that I know of with 8 rounds, but Saigas often break ten. I think the Saiga 20 has a 15-round box, and the 12 has a 20-round drum. Quote: Someone DOES make some...semblance of "clips" for the 870 and 500, but it requires bolting on a loading guide, and it;s only 3 rounds, and you only get two. I've seen manual speedfeed clips for a 12-gauge, but it's only to keep them aligned in your palm. Apparently they're reasonably effective. I have yet to see a remington with a dust cover. if you're talking about the elevator, that's not what it is. It's the elevator, and it loves the taste of thumb blood. It acts as a dust cover though. The bottom of a Mossberg is open, you could get a ROCK stuck in there. Quote: The masterkey is not an issue shotgun, it's a breaching tool and specialty attachment. It's a shotgun that fires 12-gauge shells and was issued to troops in Vietnam. How is that not an issue shotgun? It's as much a shotgun as the M9 bayonet is a knife. If they thought the Remington was poorly suited to the role, the job could have easily been fulfilled by a Mossberg. Quote: I have no troubles with clips. Two tries with the cheapest SKS clips the owner could buy, and I had it down good. I could clear all ten without dropping the bolt on my thumb after the third try (his bolt hold-open was a bit out of spec). I can clear all five on my Mosin with one good shove without hurting myself. The only blood I've given out was the elevator on a Remington, and catching my thumb with the cocking knob on my friend's little Savage .22 bolt-action. I didn't think they needed such strong strikers. I've never had problems with a Remington, you just need to keep your thumbnail in the right place. Clips, though... I always get jabbed at the base of my thumb whenever I try to push one home. Quote: It should be noted, not all of us are rich. What's that have to do with it? The 'mags aren't cheap' factor? You pick them up one or two at a time, whenever you can. They're not as easy to break as clips are. If that was a dig at Remingto v. Mossberg though, I don't get it. Cheap 870s MSRP at under three hundred bucks. Quote: Big heavy, and hard-kicking are detrimental to the "runrunrunrun ohgodthat'stocloseshoot" style. Sure, it's fine when you're shooting >100 yards and have some buffer. Not when you're supposed to be moving undetected and only shooting when you need to. That's the area where pistols shine. Rifles are for when you want a lot of rounds downrange at a distance. The upside of an AR is that you don't have to move anything but your one shooting hand to reload. You don't even have to un-shoulder. Quote: Have you SEEN the cost of Saiga mags? Or Saigas? Especially converted Saigas. And the sheer size of the magazines, too. They're ******** HUGE. Seriously. a 5-round 12 gauge magazine (almost $30, BTW) is twice as big as the mags on my Carbine. The 10-rounders look like 30-40 round AR mags. They're big, expensive, and limited. Saigas aren't all that expensive, really. Unless you mod the s**t out of one. And yeah, Saiga mags are expensive. Outside of really popular guns like the STANAG-users, AKs, Rugers, etc, what mags ARE cheap? It's $40 for a new mag for my Mossberg! That's new... how the hell does that work?
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:15 pm
Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel If it's all you've got, cool. He said he has both a Mossy 500 and an AR-10 carbine. I'd take either one of those over an SKS, starting with the Mossberg (though I do prefer Remington). The Mossberg actually has several key features over the Remington 870. The elevator is up and out of the way for 90% or so of the loading process. If you've ever got your thumb caught under the elevator on a Remington, you'd appreciate the design. It has two extractors for reliability. The Remington has a dust cover. Quote: The "rougher" build (AKA slightly looser tolerances) allows more tolerance for fouling and dirt. The Mossberg 500 (and later 590 as an enhanced version) were actually issued in one branch of the Military, and were only recently replaced with the Bennelli. It's an extremely simple design that looks like it could handle some serious abuse. Only hard thing to do with it is put the elevator back in, because the safety is positioned just so, RIGHT in the way. One millimeter on, and it wouldn't give any trouble. The original Masterkey system was an 870, sawed off and stockless, with a 'Ceiner adaptor' to mount it. Quote: I would definitely take the SKS over the AR-10. Direct gas impingement .308? After shooting my fair share of .308, no thank you. Usually large, sometimes heavy, and the magazines can be pretty big too (pretty much the reasons I wouldn't grab an FAL, either) I ******** hate clips. Finicky little shits that never work right, at least for me. I either jam it at two or three rounds, or slice my hand open. And it should be noted that Bushmaster makes a gas piston carbine kit, so he could upgrade for a couple hundred bucks. And it should also be noted that the AR-10 IS a military rifle in several countries. The only reason it lost out here in the US was that we were looking to downsize our rounds. Nobody made a good rifle, so the M14 stayed. Then Stoner came back with the AR-15 and ended the M14's 15 minutes of fame. Quote: The pros of a rifle over a shotgun have been debated countless times, you ought to know them by now. Smaller ammo, more capacity, more potential on distances and accuracy. The biggest magazine I've found without some ungodly monstrosity bolted on (like the sidewinder, or those auto-indexing tubes)is 8 rounds, and that stuck out a bit. And they are all manual-load, too. The SKS has a 10-round magazine, that can be loaded with clips or by hand, and CAN also be topped off if they really want to. Remington makes one model that I know of with 8 rounds, but Saigas often break ten. I think the Saiga 20 has a 15-round box, and the 12 has a 20-round drum. Quote: Someone DOES make some...semblance of "clips" for the 870 and 500, but it requires bolting on a loading guide, and it;s only 3 rounds, and you only get two. I've seen manual speedfeed clips for a 12-gauge, but it's only to keep them aligned in your palm. Apparently they're reasonably effective. I have yet to see a remington with a dust cover. if you're talking about the elevator, that's not what it is. It's the elevator, and it loves the taste of thumb blood. It acts as a dust cover though. The bottom of a Mossberg is open, you could get a ROCK stuck in there. Quote: The masterkey is not an issue shotgun, it's a breaching tool and specialty attachment. It's a shotgun that fires 12-gauge shells and was issued to troops in Vietnam. How is that not an issue shotgun? It's as much a shotgun as the M9 bayonet is a knife. If they thought the Remington was poorly suited to the role, the job could have easily been fulfilled by a Mossberg. Quote: I have no troubles with clips. Two tries with the cheapest SKS clips the owner could buy, and I had it down good. I could clear all ten without dropping the bolt on my thumb after the third try (his bolt hold-open was a bit out of spec). I can clear all five on my Mosin with one good shove without hurting myself. The only blood I've given out was the elevator on a Remington, and catching my thumb with the cocking knob on my friend's little Savage .22 bolt-action. I didn't think they needed such strong strikers. I've never had problems with a Remington, you just need to keep your thumbnail in the right place. Clips, though... I always get jabbed at the base of my thumb whenever I try to push one home. Quote: It should be noted, not all of us are rich. What's that have to do with it? The 'mags aren't cheap' factor? You pick them up one or two at a time, whenever you can. They're not as easy to break as clips are. If that was a dig at Remingto v. Mossberg though, I don't get it. Cheap 870s MSRP at under three hundred bucks. Quote: Big heavy, and hard-kicking are detrimental to the "runrunrunrun ohgodthat'stocloseshoot" style. Sure, it's fine when you're shooting >100 yards and have some buffer. Not when you're supposed to be moving undetected and only shooting when you need to. That's the area where pistols shine. Rifles are for when you want a lot of rounds downrange at a distance. The upside of an AR is that you don't have to move anything but your one shooting hand to reload. You don't even have to un-shoulder. Quote: Have you SEEN the cost of Saiga mags? Or Saigas? Especially converted Saigas. And the sheer size of the magazines, too. They're ******** HUGE. Seriously. a 5-round 12 gauge magazine (almost $30, BTW) is twice as big as the mags on my Carbine. The 10-rounders look like 30-40 round AR mags. They're big, expensive, and limited. Saigas aren't all that expensive, really. Unless you mod the s**t out of one. And yeah, Saiga mags are expensive. Outside of really popular guns like the STANAG-users, AKs, Rugers, etc, what mags ARE cheap? It's $40 for a new mag for my Mossberg! That's new... how the hell does that work?Sure hasn't stopped soldiers in the deserts, now has it? The rocks come out, as does the sand, and it still passes the full reliability tests every time. The 590 is even better at it, and has a higher capacity for the given model. The sand falls right out rather than being trapped, and the tolerances allow for sand, grit, fouling, et cetera. The 870Ps I've shot the last couple times damn near needed kicked open after about 150 trap loads through them. Once I get ot the range, I'll be testing that with the 500. The MASTERKEY, an UNDER-BARREL SHOTGUN ATTACHMENT with a whopping 3 round magazine and extremely short barrel, was made in the 80s. We left VIETNAM in 1975. We also didn't have rails covering those M16s to attach a masterkey. The Masterkey was DESIGNED SOLELY FOR DOOR BREACHING without having to carry a full-sized shotgun. It's not a combat shotgun. It's a door breaching tool. Can you specifically place your thumb under stress? All I have ot do is cram the shell in. It goes in, my thumb comes out. No magical mojo necessary. And it comes with a 7+1 magazine from the factory. Then move your thumb outward. it's a quick lesson to learn. Speed is your friend, as is force. Thumb near the base of the rounds, sometimes even touching the clip, push straight down. Russians, Germans, Americans, damn near every country has done it at some point and not had a problem with it. Have you ever broken a clip? I haven't. It's a simple strip of metal, rather than a mechanical structure in and of itself. No feed lips to bend, no spring to bind, no cleaning required. They rarely wear out (hell, most of them if they start wearing out, you just pinch them back together and they're good as new), and when they do it's not a tragedy. I've seen plenty of mags go out because of out-of-spec feed lips from plain use, worn out springs, and bad followers. You don't get that problem with clips. Also, the rich part was specifically mentioned because of your sneering tone towards the SKS and older rifles. Not all of us can afford a shiny AR-15, some of us can only afford the "60year-old clip-fed KOREA gun", and then afford to feed it to PRACTICE, which is even more important. And when you want a LOT of rounds down range at a distance, you get an ASSAULT rifle or an SMG. A RIFLE is for simple accurate fire at a distance--not volume of fire. I'd be more scared of Alvin York and his old bolt-action than any Tom, d**k, or Harry with an AK. And were YOU not one of the many who endorse the "don't shoot until they're too close NOT to, or they notice you" mind? And now you're espousing long-distance rapid-fire? Ever convert a Saiga to be complaint? 9.22R, IRC, is what you have to comply with to use anything but the plain hunting-style stock. And it's not that cheap, since you have to buy a number of parts that are made in the US to comply. I can buy M1 Carbine mags for $15 all day. Maybe cheaper, if I wasn't lazy about having a ready supply of GOOD $15 mags right here at the shop. Notice the third piece? That bolts on to some holes with pins already there. It guides the "clips" into the proper position for loading. Apparently, it's for 3-gun competitions.
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Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:46 pm
uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida The Mossberg actually has several key features over the Remington 870. The elevator is up and out of the way for 90% or so of the loading process. If you've ever got your thumb caught under the elevator on a Remington, you'd appreciate the design. It has two extractors for reliability. The Remington has a dust cover. Quote: The "rougher" build (AKA slightly looser tolerances) allows more tolerance for fouling and dirt. The Mossberg 500 (and later 590 as an enhanced version) were actually issued in one branch of the Military, and were only recently replaced with the Bennelli. It's an extremely simple design that looks like it could handle some serious abuse. Only hard thing to do with it is put the elevator back in, because the safety is positioned just so, RIGHT in the way. One millimeter on, and it wouldn't give any trouble. The original Masterkey system was an 870, sawed off and stockless, with a 'Ceiner adaptor' to mount it. Quote: I would definitely take the SKS over the AR-10. Direct gas impingement .308? After shooting my fair share of .308, no thank you. Usually large, sometimes heavy, and the magazines can be pretty big too (pretty much the reasons I wouldn't grab an FAL, either) I ******** hate clips. Finicky little shits that never work right, at least for me. I either jam it at two or three rounds, or slice my hand open. And it should be noted that Bushmaster makes a gas piston carbine kit, so he could upgrade for a couple hundred bucks. And it should also be noted that the AR-10 IS a military rifle in several countries. The only reason it lost out here in the US was that we were looking to downsize our rounds. Nobody made a good rifle, so the M14 stayed. Then Stoner came back with the AR-15 and ended the M14's 15 minutes of fame. Quote: The pros of a rifle over a shotgun have been debated countless times, you ought to know them by now. Smaller ammo, more capacity, more potential on distances and accuracy. The biggest magazine I've found without some ungodly monstrosity bolted on (like the sidewinder, or those auto-indexing tubes)is 8 rounds, and that stuck out a bit. And they are all manual-load, too. The SKS has a 10-round magazine, that can be loaded with clips or by hand, and CAN also be topped off if they really want to. Remington makes one model that I know of with 8 rounds, but Saigas often break ten. I think the Saiga 20 has a 15-round box, and the 12 has a 20-round drum. Quote: Someone DOES make some...semblance of "clips" for the 870 and 500, but it requires bolting on a loading guide, and it;s only 3 rounds, and you only get two. I've seen manual speedfeed clips for a 12-gauge, but it's only to keep them aligned in your palm. Apparently they're reasonably effective. I have yet to see a remington with a dust cover. if you're talking about the elevator, that's not what it is. It's the elevator, and it loves the taste of thumb blood. It acts as a dust cover though. The bottom of a Mossberg is open, you could get a ROCK stuck in there. Quote: The masterkey is not an issue shotgun, it's a breaching tool and specialty attachment. It's a shotgun that fires 12-gauge shells and was issued to troops in Vietnam. How is that not an issue shotgun? It's as much a shotgun as the M9 bayonet is a knife. If they thought the Remington was poorly suited to the role, the job could have easily been fulfilled by a Mossberg. Quote: I have no troubles with clips. Two tries with the cheapest SKS clips the owner could buy, and I had it down good. I could clear all ten without dropping the bolt on my thumb after the third try (his bolt hold-open was a bit out of spec). I can clear all five on my Mosin with one good shove without hurting myself. The only blood I've given out was the elevator on a Remington, and catching my thumb with the cocking knob on my friend's little Savage .22 bolt-action. I didn't think they needed such strong strikers. I've never had problems with a Remington, you just need to keep your thumbnail in the right place. Clips, though... I always get jabbed at the base of my thumb whenever I try to push one home. Quote: It should be noted, not all of us are rich. What's that have to do with it? The 'mags aren't cheap' factor? You pick them up one or two at a time, whenever you can. They're not as easy to break as clips are. If that was a dig at Remingto v. Mossberg though, I don't get it. Cheap 870s MSRP at under three hundred bucks. Quote: Big heavy, and hard-kicking are detrimental to the "runrunrunrun ohgodthat'stocloseshoot" style. Sure, it's fine when you're shooting >100 yards and have some buffer. Not when you're supposed to be moving undetected and only shooting when you need to. That's the area where pistols shine. Rifles are for when you want a lot of rounds downrange at a distance. The upside of an AR is that you don't have to move anything but your one shooting hand to reload. You don't even have to un-shoulder. Quote: Have you SEEN the cost of Saiga mags? Or Saigas? Especially converted Saigas. And the sheer size of the magazines, too. They're ******** HUGE. Seriously. a 5-round 12 gauge magazine (almost $30, BTW) is twice as big as the mags on my Carbine. The 10-rounders look like 30-40 round AR mags. They're big, expensive, and limited. Saigas aren't all that expensive, really. Unless you mod the s**t out of one. And yeah, Saiga mags are expensive. Outside of really popular guns like the STANAG-users, AKs, Rugers, etc, what mags ARE cheap? It's $40 for a new mag for my Mossberg! That's new... how the hell does that work? Sure hasn't stopped soldiers in the deserts, now has it? The rocks come out, as does the sand, and it still passes the full reliability tests every time. The 590 is even better at it, and has a higher capacity for the given model. The sand falls right out rather than being trapped, and the tolerances allow for sand, grit, fouling, et cetera. The 870Ps I've shot the last couple times damn near needed kicked open after about 150 trap loads through them. Once I get ot the range, I'll be testing that with the 500. I've never had problems with 870s binding. Quote: The MASTERKEY, an UNDER-BARREL SHOTGUN ATTACHMENT with a whopping 3 round magazine and extremely short barrel, was made in the 80s. We left VIETNAM in 1975. We also didn't have rails covering those M16s to attach a masterkey. The Masterkey was DESIGNED SOLELY FOR DOOR BREACHING without having to carry a full-sized shotgun. It's not a combat shotgun. It's a door breaching tool. And if they didn't think Remington was suited to the job, they could have use a Mossberg to the same effect. Also, the Ciener mount uses an extra-long pin (the upper/lower pin near the mag well) to bind the upper, lower, and Masterkey, and the mount also slides onto the bayonet lug. Technically the weapon was the "Ciener Ultimate Over/Under", but it's a Masterkey in all but name. Quote: Can you specifically place your thumb under stress? All I have ot do is cram the shell in. It goes in, my thumb comes out. No magical mojo necessary. And it comes with a 7+1 magazine from the factory. Then move your thumb outward. it's a quick lesson to learn. Speed is your friend, as is force. Thumb near the base of the rounds, sometimes even touching the clip, push straight down. Russians, Germans, Americans, damn near every country has done it at some point and not had a problem with it. It's how I naturally feed rounds, so yes. Curl your thumb a bit and it slaps against your thumb-knuckle instead of biting down on your thumbnail. Maybe it's the SMLE clips. Most, like SKS clips, are thin and C-shaped. SMLE clips, well...  I always cut myself on the edges about four rounds in. And because the lay crooked, It's tough to get all the rounds in without using enough force to sever my thumb come slice-time. Oh, and en-bloc clips don't count here, because the entire clip goes in the gun. Quote: Have you ever broken a clip? I haven't. It's a simple strip of metal, rather than a mechanical structure in and of itself. No feed lips to bend, no spring to bind, no cleaning required. They rarely wear out (hell, most of them if they start wearing out, you just pinch them back together and they're good as new), and when they do it's not a tragedy. I've seen plenty of mags go out because of out-of-spec feed lips from plain use, worn out springs, and bad followers. You don't get that problem with clips. I HAVE bent clips so badly they're unusable. Got three SMLE clips that are bent so bad you can't load them. They've SKEWED. Quote: Also, the rich part was specifically mentioned because of your sneering tone towards the SKS and older rifles. Not all of us can afford a shiny AR-15, some of us can only afford the "60year-old clip-fed KOREA gun", and then afford to feed it to PRACTICE, which is even more important. This point is moot. I said if it's all you've got, use it. But it's NOT all he's got, he's got a plethora of other weapons to choose from. I'm suggesting he do so. Quote: And when you want a LOT of rounds down range at a distance, you get an ASSAULT rifle or an SMG. You should see the flaw in that argument. Quote: A RIFLE is for simple accurate fire at a distance--not volume of fire. I'd be more scared of Alvin York and his old bolt-action than any Tom, d**k, or Harry with an AK. And were YOU not one of the many who endorse the "don't shoot until they're too close NOT to, or they notice you" mind? And now you're espousing long-distance rapid-fire? By 'a lot' I meant volume, not speed. Quote: Ever convert a Saiga to be complaint? 9.22R, IRC, is what you have to comply with to use anything but the plain hunting-style stock. And it's not that cheap, since you have to buy a number of parts that are made in the US to comply. Who said you had to convert it? And let's assume you did convert it, who's going to come into your house, rip your gun apart, and determine which parts were or were not made in the US? Quote: I can buy M1 Carbine mags for $15 all day. Maybe cheaper, if I wasn't lazy about having a ready supply of GOOD $15 mags right here at the shop. It's a military gun. They made those things by the millions. Of course they're cheap. I've seen cheap AR-15 mags for 10-12 bucks each, and they work pretty well. Quote: Notice the third piece? That bolts on to some holes with pins already there. It guides the "clips" into the proper position for loading. Apparently, it's for 3-gun competitions. I just can't picture it working. I'd have to see a demonstration.
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:01 am
My name is Rose. I was born on March ninteenth 1991.
I am a geek of many kinds, a poet and a writer.
I worship the old gods, nerd it up with my girlfriend and practice fencing.
I don't have many weapons because I was just let out of a mental hospital. I do how ever have screama sticks and access to molitove cocktails.
I also am an on and off insomniac.
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:38 pm
Batman doesnt cry My name is Rose. I was born on March ninteenth 1991. I am a geek of many kinds, a poet and a writer. I worship the old gods, nerd it up with my girlfriend and practice fencing. I don't have many weapons because I was just let out of a mental hospital. I do how ever have screama sticks and access to molitove cocktails. I also am an on and off insomniac. Cool someone actually posted something about themselves and not GUNS. AND MOLOTOV COCKTAILS RULE! *boom*. and what is a screama stick? I used to do fencing, but I got bored after I got good. And what mental "illness" did they say you have? pyromania? that would be cool.
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:50 pm
Broken_Penguin_Man Batman doesnt cry My name is Rose. I was born on March ninteenth 1991. I am a geek of many kinds, a poet and a writer. I worship the old gods, nerd it up with my girlfriend and practice fencing. I don't have many weapons because I was just let out of a mental hospital. I do how ever have screama sticks and access to molitove cocktails. I also am an on and off insomniac. Cool someone actually posted something about themselves and not GUNS. AND MOLOTOV COCKTAILS RULE! *boom*. and what is a screama stick? I used to do fencing, but I got bored after I got good. And what mental "illness" did they say you have? pyromania? that would be cool. Sadly not pyromania. Depression and anxiety disorder, with insomnia induced hallucinations. Screma sticks are the twin wooden sticks you get in karate. I'll upload a pic once I learn how.
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:11 pm
Someone told me I should go to a psychiatrist to see what psychiatric problems I had. We asked some people and this is what they said.
1.pyromania
2.insanity (general)
3.depression
3.ADD
4.ADHD
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Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:39 pm
Batman doesnt cry Broken_Penguin_Man Batman doesnt cry My name is Rose. I was born on March ninteenth 1991. I am a geek of many kinds, a poet and a writer. I worship the old gods, nerd it up with my girlfriend and practice fencing. I don't have many weapons because I was just let out of a mental hospital. I do how ever have screama sticks and access to molitove cocktails. I also am an on and off insomniac. Cool someone actually posted something about themselves and not GUNS. AND MOLOTOV COCKTAILS RULE! *boom*. and what is a screama stick? I used to do fencing, but I got bored after I got good. And what mental "illness" did they say you have? pyromania? that would be cool. Sadly not pyromania. Depression and anxiety disorder, with insomnia induced hallucinations. Screma sticks are the twin wooden sticks you get in karate. I'll upload a pic once I learn how. ESCRIMA, both the weapon and the art. Karate is Japanese/Okinawan, Escrima is Filipino. When you can't spell the weapon or name the art, it makes me highly suspicious you know how to use it properly. Besides, escrima sticks are just that... sticks.
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:33 pm
Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel The Remington has a dust cover. The original Masterkey system was an 870, sawed off and stockless, with a 'Ceiner adaptor' to mount it. I ******** hate clips. Finicky little shits that never work right, at least for me. I either jam it at two or three rounds, or slice my hand open. And it should be noted that Bushmaster makes a gas piston carbine kit, so he could upgrade for a couple hundred bucks. And it should also be noted that the AR-10 IS a military rifle in several countries. The only reason it lost out here in the US was that we were looking to downsize our rounds. Nobody made a good rifle, so the M14 stayed. Then Stoner came back with the AR-15 and ended the M14's 15 minutes of fame. Remington makes one model that I know of with 8 rounds, but Saigas often break ten. I think the Saiga 20 has a 15-round box, and the 12 has a 20-round drum. I've seen manual speedfeed clips for a 12-gauge, but it's only to keep them aligned in your palm. Apparently they're reasonably effective. I have yet to see a remington with a dust cover. if you're talking about the elevator, that's not what it is. It's the elevator, and it loves the taste of thumb blood. It acts as a dust cover though. The bottom of a Mossberg is open, you could get a ROCK stuck in there. Quote: The masterkey is not an issue shotgun, it's a breaching tool and specialty attachment. It's a shotgun that fires 12-gauge shells and was issued to troops in Vietnam. How is that not an issue shotgun? It's as much a shotgun as the M9 bayonet is a knife. If they thought the Remington was poorly suited to the role, the job could have easily been fulfilled by a Mossberg. Quote: I have no troubles with clips. Two tries with the cheapest SKS clips the owner could buy, and I had it down good. I could clear all ten without dropping the bolt on my thumb after the third try (his bolt hold-open was a bit out of spec). I can clear all five on my Mosin with one good shove without hurting myself. The only blood I've given out was the elevator on a Remington, and catching my thumb with the cocking knob on my friend's little Savage .22 bolt-action. I didn't think they needed such strong strikers. I've never had problems with a Remington, you just need to keep your thumbnail in the right place. Clips, though... I always get jabbed at the base of my thumb whenever I try to push one home. Quote: It should be noted, not all of us are rich. What's that have to do with it? The 'mags aren't cheap' factor? You pick them up one or two at a time, whenever you can. They're not as easy to break as clips are. If that was a dig at Remingto v. Mossberg though, I don't get it. Cheap 870s MSRP at under three hundred bucks. Quote: Big heavy, and hard-kicking are detrimental to the "runrunrunrun ohgodthat'stocloseshoot" style. Sure, it's fine when you're shooting >100 yards and have some buffer. Not when you're supposed to be moving undetected and only shooting when you need to. That's the area where pistols shine. Rifles are for when you want a lot of rounds downrange at a distance. The upside of an AR is that you don't have to move anything but your one shooting hand to reload. You don't even have to un-shoulder. Quote: Have you SEEN the cost of Saiga mags? Or Saigas? Especially converted Saigas. And the sheer size of the magazines, too. They're ******** HUGE. Seriously. a 5-round 12 gauge magazine (almost $30, BTW) is twice as big as the mags on my Carbine. The 10-rounders look like 30-40 round AR mags. They're big, expensive, and limited. Saigas aren't all that expensive, really. Unless you mod the s**t out of one. And yeah, Saiga mags are expensive. Outside of really popular guns like the STANAG-users, AKs, Rugers, etc, what mags ARE cheap? It's $40 for a new mag for my Mossberg! That's new... how the hell does that work? Sure hasn't stopped soldiers in the deserts, now has it? The rocks come out, as does the sand, and it still passes the full reliability tests every time. The 590 is even better at it, and has a higher capacity for the given model. The sand falls right out rather than being trapped, and the tolerances allow for sand, grit, fouling, et cetera. The 870Ps I've shot the last couple times damn near needed kicked open after about 150 trap loads through them. Once I get ot the range, I'll be testing that with the 500. I've never had problems with 870s binding. Quote: The MASTERKEY, an UNDER-BARREL SHOTGUN ATTACHMENT with a whopping 3 round magazine and extremely short barrel, was made in the 80s. We left VIETNAM in 1975. We also didn't have rails covering those M16s to attach a masterkey. The Masterkey was DESIGNED SOLELY FOR DOOR BREACHING without having to carry a full-sized shotgun. It's not a combat shotgun. It's a door breaching tool. And if they didn't think Remington was suited to the job, they could have use a Mossberg to the same effect. Also, the Ciener mount uses an extra-long pin (the upper/lower pin near the mag well) to bind the upper, lower, and Masterkey, and the mount also slides onto the bayonet lug. Technically the weapon was the "Ciener Ultimate Over/Under", but it's a Masterkey in all but name. Quote: Can you specifically place your thumb under stress? All I have ot do is cram the shell in. It goes in, my thumb comes out. No magical mojo necessary. And it comes with a 7+1 magazine from the factory. Then move your thumb outward. it's a quick lesson to learn. Speed is your friend, as is force. Thumb near the base of the rounds, sometimes even touching the clip, push straight down. Russians, Germans, Americans, damn near every country has done it at some point and not had a problem with it. It's how I naturally feed rounds, so yes. Curl your thumb a bit and it slaps against your thumb-knuckle instead of biting down on your thumbnail. Maybe it's the SMLE clips. Most, like SKS clips, are thin and C-shaped. SMLE clips, well... I always cut myself on the edges about four rounds in. And because the lay crooked, It's tough to get all the rounds in without using enough force to sever my thumb come slice-time. Oh, and en-bloc clips don't count here, because the entire clip goes in the gun. Quote: Have you ever broken a clip? I haven't. It's a simple strip of metal, rather than a mechanical structure in and of itself. No feed lips to bend, no spring to bind, no cleaning required. They rarely wear out (hell, most of them if they start wearing out, you just pinch them back together and they're good as new), and when they do it's not a tragedy. I've seen plenty of mags go out because of out-of-spec feed lips from plain use, worn out springs, and bad followers. You don't get that problem with clips. I HAVE bent clips so badly they're unusable. Got three SMLE clips that are bent so bad you can't load them. They've SKEWED. Quote: Also, the rich part was specifically mentioned because of your sneering tone towards the SKS and older rifles. Not all of us can afford a shiny AR-15, some of us can only afford the "60year-old clip-fed KOREA gun", and then afford to feed it to PRACTICE, which is even more important. This point is moot. I said if it's all you've got, use it. But it's NOT all he's got, he's got a plethora of other weapons to choose from. I'm suggesting he do so. Quote: And when you want a LOT of rounds down range at a distance, you get an ASSAULT rifle or an SMG. You should see the flaw in that argument. Quote: A RIFLE is for simple accurate fire at a distance--not volume of fire. I'd be more scared of Alvin York and his old bolt-action than any Tom, d**k, or Harry with an AK. And were YOU not one of the many who endorse the "don't shoot until they're too close NOT to, or they notice you" mind? And now you're espousing long-distance rapid-fire? By 'a lot' I meant volume, not speed. Quote: Ever convert a Saiga to be complaint? 9.22R, IRC, is what you have to comply with to use anything but the plain hunting-style stock. And it's not that cheap, since you have to buy a number of parts that are made in the US to comply. Who said you had to convert it? And let's assume you did convert it, who's going to come into your house, rip your gun apart, and determine which parts were or were not made in the US? Quote: I can buy M1 Carbine mags for $15 all day. Maybe cheaper, if I wasn't lazy about having a ready supply of GOOD $15 mags right here at the shop. It's a military gun. They made those things by the millions. Of course they're cheap. I've seen cheap AR-15 mags for 10-12 bucks each, and they work pretty well. Quote: Notice the third piece? That bolts on to some holes with pins already there. It guides the "clips" into the proper position for loading. Apparently, it's for 3-gun competitions. I just can't picture it working. I'd have to see a demonstration.I sure have had issues. The tolerances are TOO tight to really deal with high amounts of fouling. Could have been the WIN-X SUPER TARGETs we were using, but the Ithaca 37 we were somewhat competing with wasn't having issues. Other than not selling it to me, anyway. Still wasn't developed until after Vietnam, and sees pretty limited use. I don;t have to worry about it at all. *cram cram cram* done. Nagant clips are similar. You probably got some bad clips, like I did. The steel ones I got were fine, but too tight. I got some brass ones, and they were a bit sharp. They were home-made, to be fair. A couple seconds with my whetstone and it was better. Loads smooth, and a hell of a lot better than hand loading. They're still clips. THough it's a big step towards magazines, especially looking from the rear. I've got five brass Nagant clips that I use pretty heavily and they're still perfectly fine. They work better now, if anything, since the ends are now form-fit to my Nagant's loading port. "If it's all you've got..." Is one of the biggest class-based arguments ever used. "It's not quite good enough, but if it's all you've got..." Yeah yeah, you can't get either. But that's their point. A plain-ol RIFLE is for accurate fire, NOT VOLUME. Hayha accounted for lots, and lots of kills with a simple Mosin Nagant and his skills. "They'll never catch me" is not a valid argument when it comes to law. I suppose it's alright to have non-registered and non-stamped full-autos and suppressors and SBSes and SBRs as long as you don't get caught? Not to Big Sam. NEW production. Ironically, Korean. Never left the packaging, made last month. I've looked for one. I can't find ANYTHING on their use. Did I mention that the Mossberg 500 passed the 3443E test, which is 3,000 rounds of full-power buckshot? Now, 3443G requires a metal trigger guard, so new models are disqualified by that, with the 590 taking up that gauntlet. Remington didn't even put an offering in.
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:17 pm
uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida I have yet to see a remington with a dust cover. if you're talking about the elevator, that's not what it is. It's the elevator, and it loves the taste of thumb blood. It acts as a dust cover though. The bottom of a Mossberg is open, you could get a ROCK stuck in there. Quote: The masterkey is not an issue shotgun, it's a breaching tool and specialty attachment. It's a shotgun that fires 12-gauge shells and was issued to troops in Vietnam. How is that not an issue shotgun? It's as much a shotgun as the M9 bayonet is a knife. If they thought the Remington was poorly suited to the role, the job could have easily been fulfilled by a Mossberg. Quote: I have no troubles with clips. Two tries with the cheapest SKS clips the owner could buy, and I had it down good. I could clear all ten without dropping the bolt on my thumb after the third try (his bolt hold-open was a bit out of spec). I can clear all five on my Mosin with one good shove without hurting myself. The only blood I've given out was the elevator on a Remington, and catching my thumb with the cocking knob on my friend's little Savage .22 bolt-action. I didn't think they needed such strong strikers. I've never had problems with a Remington, you just need to keep your thumbnail in the right place. Clips, though... I always get jabbed at the base of my thumb whenever I try to push one home. Quote: It should be noted, not all of us are rich. What's that have to do with it? The 'mags aren't cheap' factor? You pick them up one or two at a time, whenever you can. They're not as easy to break as clips are. If that was a dig at Remingto v. Mossberg though, I don't get it. Cheap 870s MSRP at under three hundred bucks. Quote: Big heavy, and hard-kicking are detrimental to the "runrunrunrun ohgodthat'stocloseshoot" style. Sure, it's fine when you're shooting >100 yards and have some buffer. Not when you're supposed to be moving undetected and only shooting when you need to. That's the area where pistols shine. Rifles are for when you want a lot of rounds downrange at a distance. The upside of an AR is that you don't have to move anything but your one shooting hand to reload. You don't even have to un-shoulder. Quote: Have you SEEN the cost of Saiga mags? Or Saigas? Especially converted Saigas. And the sheer size of the magazines, too. They're ******** HUGE. Seriously. a 5-round 12 gauge magazine (almost $30, BTW) is twice as big as the mags on my Carbine. The 10-rounders look like 30-40 round AR mags. They're big, expensive, and limited. Saigas aren't all that expensive, really. Unless you mod the s**t out of one. And yeah, Saiga mags are expensive. Outside of really popular guns like the STANAG-users, AKs, Rugers, etc, what mags ARE cheap? It's $40 for a new mag for my Mossberg! That's new... how the hell does that work? Sure hasn't stopped soldiers in the deserts, now has it? The rocks come out, as does the sand, and it still passes the full reliability tests every time. The 590 is even better at it, and has a higher capacity for the given model. The sand falls right out rather than being trapped, and the tolerances allow for sand, grit, fouling, et cetera. The 870Ps I've shot the last couple times damn near needed kicked open after about 150 trap loads through them. Once I get ot the range, I'll be testing that with the 500. I've never had problems with 870s binding. Quote: The MASTERKEY, an UNDER-BARREL SHOTGUN ATTACHMENT with a whopping 3 round magazine and extremely short barrel, was made in the 80s. We left VIETNAM in 1975. We also didn't have rails covering those M16s to attach a masterkey. The Masterkey was DESIGNED SOLELY FOR DOOR BREACHING without having to carry a full-sized shotgun. It's not a combat shotgun. It's a door breaching tool. And if they didn't think Remington was suited to the job, they could have use a Mossberg to the same effect. Also, the Ciener mount uses an extra-long pin (the upper/lower pin near the mag well) to bind the upper, lower, and Masterkey, and the mount also slides onto the bayonet lug. Technically the weapon was the "Ciener Ultimate Over/Under", but it's a Masterkey in all but name. Quote: Can you specifically place your thumb under stress? All I have ot do is cram the shell in. It goes in, my thumb comes out. No magical mojo necessary. And it comes with a 7+1 magazine from the factory. Then move your thumb outward. it's a quick lesson to learn. Speed is your friend, as is force. Thumb near the base of the rounds, sometimes even touching the clip, push straight down. Russians, Germans, Americans, damn near every country has done it at some point and not had a problem with it. It's how I naturally feed rounds, so yes. Curl your thumb a bit and it slaps against your thumb-knuckle instead of biting down on your thumbnail. Maybe it's the SMLE clips. Most, like SKS clips, are thin and C-shaped. SMLE clips, well... I always cut myself on the edges about four rounds in. And because the lay crooked, It's tough to get all the rounds in without using enough force to sever my thumb come slice-time. Oh, and en-bloc clips don't count here, because the entire clip goes in the gun. Quote: Have you ever broken a clip? I haven't. It's a simple strip of metal, rather than a mechanical structure in and of itself. No feed lips to bend, no spring to bind, no cleaning required. They rarely wear out (hell, most of them if they start wearing out, you just pinch them back together and they're good as new), and when they do it's not a tragedy. I've seen plenty of mags go out because of out-of-spec feed lips from plain use, worn out springs, and bad followers. You don't get that problem with clips. I HAVE bent clips so badly they're unusable. Got three SMLE clips that are bent so bad you can't load them. They've SKEWED. Quote: Also, the rich part was specifically mentioned because of your sneering tone towards the SKS and older rifles. Not all of us can afford a shiny AR-15, some of us can only afford the "60year-old clip-fed KOREA gun", and then afford to feed it to PRACTICE, which is even more important. This point is moot. I said if it's all you've got, use it. But it's NOT all he's got, he's got a plethora of other weapons to choose from. I'm suggesting he do so. Quote: And when you want a LOT of rounds down range at a distance, you get an ASSAULT rifle or an SMG. You should see the flaw in that argument. Quote: A RIFLE is for simple accurate fire at a distance--not volume of fire. I'd be more scared of Alvin York and his old bolt-action than any Tom, d**k, or Harry with an AK. And were YOU not one of the many who endorse the "don't shoot until they're too close NOT to, or they notice you" mind? And now you're espousing long-distance rapid-fire? By 'a lot' I meant volume, not speed. Quote: Ever convert a Saiga to be complaint? 9.22R, IRC, is what you have to comply with to use anything but the plain hunting-style stock. And it's not that cheap, since you have to buy a number of parts that are made in the US to comply. Who said you had to convert it? And let's assume you did convert it, who's going to come into your house, rip your gun apart, and determine which parts were or were not made in the US? Quote: I can buy M1 Carbine mags for $15 all day. Maybe cheaper, if I wasn't lazy about having a ready supply of GOOD $15 mags right here at the shop. It's a military gun. They made those things by the millions. Of course they're cheap. I've seen cheap AR-15 mags for 10-12 bucks each, and they work pretty well. Quote: Notice the third piece? That bolts on to some holes with pins already there. It guides the "clips" into the proper position for loading. Apparently, it's for 3-gun competitions. I just can't picture it working. I'd have to see a demonstration. I sure have had issues. The tolerances are TOO tight to really deal with high amounts of fouling. Could have been the WIN-X SUPER TARGETs we were using, but the Ithaca 37 we were somewhat competing with wasn't having issues. Other than not selling it to me, anyway. Could have just been that particular shotgun. Quote: Still wasn't developed until after Vietnam, and sees pretty limited use. Eh, so I got my time wrong. I thought they were in 'Nam, but whatever. Nowadays it's the Light Shotgun System... underbarrel, mag-fed semi-auto. Anyway, my point was that it was a military shotgun at one point. Quote: I don;t have to worry about it at all. *cram cram cram* done. Nagant clips are similar. You probably got some bad clips, like I did. The steel ones I got were fine, but too tight. I got some brass ones, and they were a bit sharp. They were home-made, to be fair. A couple seconds with my whetstone and it was better. Loads smooth, and a hell of a lot better than hand loading. They're still clips. THough it's a big step towards magazines, especially looking from the rear. I've got five brass Nagant clips that I use pretty heavily and they're still perfectly fine. They work better now, if anything, since the ends are now form-fit to my Nagant's loading port. "If it's all you've got..." Is one of the biggest class-based arguments ever used. "It's not quite good enough, but if it's all you've got..." That doesn't make it WRONG. Lorcin makes its living by "if it's all you've got". The best place to hide for a zombie apocalypse is a nuclear bomb shelter with a billion years of food and a thousand kinds of entertainment, but IF IT'S ALL YOU'VE GOT, boarding yourself in the attic would work. Quote: Yeah yeah, you can't get either. But that's their point. A plain-ol RIFLE is for accurate fire, NOT VOLUME. Hayha accounted for lots, and lots of kills with a simple Mosin Nagant and his skills. I think you're still misunderstanding me. I mean volume not relating to speed in any way. Like putting a thousand rounds downrange over the course of a year. Quote: "They'll never catch me" is not a valid argument when it comes to law. I suppose it's alright to have non-registered and non-stamped full-autos and suppressors and SBSes and SBRs as long as you don't get caught? Not to Big Sam. "They can't get the proof they need to bust me" IS a valid argument. Quote: NEW production. Ironically, Korean. Never left the packaging, made last month. Mine were Chinese, I think. All steel, no mfg. stamps. Got 'em for $10. One of them is a bit fuzzy occasionally, but it's not bad. It just lets the bolt slam home on empty sometimes. Quote: I've looked for one. I can't find ANYTHING on their use. Did I mention that the Mossberg 500 passed the 3443E test, which is 3,000 rounds of full-power buckshot? Now, 3443G requires a metal trigger guard, so new models are disqualified by that, with the 590 taking up that gauntlet. Remington didn't even put an offering in.
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:18 pm
Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel It acts as a dust cover though. The bottom of a Mossberg is open, you could get a ROCK stuck in there. It's a shotgun that fires 12-gauge shells and was issued to troops in Vietnam. How is that not an issue shotgun? It's as much a shotgun as the M9 bayonet is a knife. If they thought the Remington was poorly suited to the role, the job could have easily been fulfilled by a Mossberg. I've never had problems with a Remington, you just need to keep your thumbnail in the right place. Clips, though... I always get jabbed at the base of my thumb whenever I try to push one home. What's that have to do with it? The 'mags aren't cheap' factor? You pick them up one or two at a time, whenever you can. They're not as easy to break as clips are. If that was a dig at Remingto v. Mossberg though, I don't get it. Cheap 870s MSRP at under three hundred bucks. That's the area where pistols shine. Rifles are for when you want a lot of rounds downrange at a distance. The upside of an AR is that you don't have to move anything but your one shooting hand to reload. You don't even have to un-shoulder. Saigas aren't all that expensive, really. Unless you mod the s**t out of one. And yeah, Saiga mags are expensive. Outside of really popular guns like the STANAG-users, AKs, Rugers, etc, what mags ARE cheap? It's $40 for a new mag for my Mossberg! That's new... how the hell does that work? Sure hasn't stopped soldiers in the deserts, now has it? The rocks come out, as does the sand, and it still passes the full reliability tests every time. The 590 is even better at it, and has a higher capacity for the given model. The sand falls right out rather than being trapped, and the tolerances allow for sand, grit, fouling, et cetera. The 870Ps I've shot the last couple times damn near needed kicked open after about 150 trap loads through them. Once I get ot the range, I'll be testing that with the 500. I've never had problems with 870s binding. Quote: The MASTERKEY, an UNDER-BARREL SHOTGUN ATTACHMENT with a whopping 3 round magazine and extremely short barrel, was made in the 80s. We left VIETNAM in 1975. We also didn't have rails covering those M16s to attach a masterkey. The Masterkey was DESIGNED SOLELY FOR DOOR BREACHING without having to carry a full-sized shotgun. It's not a combat shotgun. It's a door breaching tool. And if they didn't think Remington was suited to the job, they could have use a Mossberg to the same effect. Also, the Ciener mount uses an extra-long pin (the upper/lower pin near the mag well) to bind the upper, lower, and Masterkey, and the mount also slides onto the bayonet lug. Technically the weapon was the "Ciener Ultimate Over/Under", but it's a Masterkey in all but name. Quote: Can you specifically place your thumb under stress? All I have ot do is cram the shell in. It goes in, my thumb comes out. No magical mojo necessary. And it comes with a 7+1 magazine from the factory. Then move your thumb outward. it's a quick lesson to learn. Speed is your friend, as is force. Thumb near the base of the rounds, sometimes even touching the clip, push straight down. Russians, Germans, Americans, damn near every country has done it at some point and not had a problem with it. It's how I naturally feed rounds, so yes. Curl your thumb a bit and it slaps against your thumb-knuckle instead of biting down on your thumbnail. Maybe it's the SMLE clips. Most, like SKS clips, are thin and C-shaped. SMLE clips, well... I always cut myself on the edges about four rounds in. And because the lay crooked, It's tough to get all the rounds in without using enough force to sever my thumb come slice-time. Oh, and en-bloc clips don't count here, because the entire clip goes in the gun. Quote: Have you ever broken a clip? I haven't. It's a simple strip of metal, rather than a mechanical structure in and of itself. No feed lips to bend, no spring to bind, no cleaning required. They rarely wear out (hell, most of them if they start wearing out, you just pinch them back together and they're good as new), and when they do it's not a tragedy. I've seen plenty of mags go out because of out-of-spec feed lips from plain use, worn out springs, and bad followers. You don't get that problem with clips. I HAVE bent clips so badly they're unusable. Got three SMLE clips that are bent so bad you can't load them. They've SKEWED. Quote: Also, the rich part was specifically mentioned because of your sneering tone towards the SKS and older rifles. Not all of us can afford a shiny AR-15, some of us can only afford the "60year-old clip-fed KOREA gun", and then afford to feed it to PRACTICE, which is even more important. This point is moot. I said if it's all you've got, use it. But it's NOT all he's got, he's got a plethora of other weapons to choose from. I'm suggesting he do so. Quote: And when you want a LOT of rounds down range at a distance, you get an ASSAULT rifle or an SMG. You should see the flaw in that argument. Quote: A RIFLE is for simple accurate fire at a distance--not volume of fire. I'd be more scared of Alvin York and his old bolt-action than any Tom, d**k, or Harry with an AK. And were YOU not one of the many who endorse the "don't shoot until they're too close NOT to, or they notice you" mind? And now you're espousing long-distance rapid-fire? By 'a lot' I meant volume, not speed. Quote: Ever convert a Saiga to be complaint? 9.22R, IRC, is what you have to comply with to use anything but the plain hunting-style stock. And it's not that cheap, since you have to buy a number of parts that are made in the US to comply. Who said you had to convert it? And let's assume you did convert it, who's going to come into your house, rip your gun apart, and determine which parts were or were not made in the US? Quote: I can buy M1 Carbine mags for $15 all day. Maybe cheaper, if I wasn't lazy about having a ready supply of GOOD $15 mags right here at the shop. It's a military gun. They made those things by the millions. Of course they're cheap. I've seen cheap AR-15 mags for 10-12 bucks each, and they work pretty well. Quote: Notice the third piece? That bolts on to some holes with pins already there. It guides the "clips" into the proper position for loading. Apparently, it's for 3-gun competitions. I just can't picture it working. I'd have to see a demonstration. I sure have had issues. The tolerances are TOO tight to really deal with high amounts of fouling. Could have been the WIN-X SUPER TARGETs we were using, but the Ithaca 37 we were somewhat competing with wasn't having issues. Other than not selling it to me, anyway. Could have just been that particular shotgun. Quote: Still wasn't developed until after Vietnam, and sees pretty limited use. Eh, so I got my time wrong. I thought they were in 'Nam, but whatever. Nowadays it's the Light Shotgun System... underbarrel, mag-fed semi-auto. Anyway, my point was that it was a military shotgun at one point. Quote: I don;t have to worry about it at all. *cram cram cram* done. Nagant clips are similar. You probably got some bad clips, like I did. The steel ones I got were fine, but too tight. I got some brass ones, and they were a bit sharp. They were home-made, to be fair. A couple seconds with my whetstone and it was better. Loads smooth, and a hell of a lot better than hand loading. They're still clips. THough it's a big step towards magazines, especially looking from the rear. I've got five brass Nagant clips that I use pretty heavily and they're still perfectly fine. They work better now, if anything, since the ends are now form-fit to my Nagant's loading port. "If it's all you've got..." Is one of the biggest class-based arguments ever used. "It's not quite good enough, but if it's all you've got..." That doesn't make it WRONG. Lorcin makes its living by "if it's all you've got". The best place to hide for a zombie apocalypse is a nuclear bomb shelter with a billion years of food and a thousand kinds of entertainment, but IF IT'S ALL YOU'VE GOT, boarding yourself in the attic would work. Quote: Yeah yeah, you can't get either. But that's their point. A plain-ol RIFLE is for accurate fire, NOT VOLUME. Hayha accounted for lots, and lots of kills with a simple Mosin Nagant and his skills. I think you're still misunderstanding me. I mean volume not relating to speed in any way. Like putting a thousand rounds downrange over the course of a year. Quote: "They'll never catch me" is not a valid argument when it comes to law. I suppose it's alright to have non-registered and non-stamped full-autos and suppressors and SBSes and SBRs as long as you don't get caught? Not to Big Sam. "They can't get the proof they need to bust me" IS a valid argument. Quote: NEW production. Ironically, Korean. Never left the packaging, made last month. Mine were Chinese, I think. All steel, no mfg. stamps. Got 'em for $10. One of them is a bit fuzzy occasionally, but it's not bad. It just lets the bolt slam home on empty sometimes. Quote: I've looked for one. I can't find ANYTHING on their use. Did I mention that the Mossberg 500 passed the 3443E test, which is 3,000 rounds of full-power buckshot? Now, 3443G requires a metal trigger guard, so new models are disqualified by that, with the 590 taking up that gauntlet. Remington didn't even put an offering in. Considering the sheer number of 870s having the problem, doesn't seem like it. They could have been picky, but they started out fine. I say they need another extractor, or maybe a slightly larger chamber (wider). Actually, the currect underbarrel system is a straight-pull bolt, not semi-auto. When I saw it for the first time, I coudl swear it was semi-auto, but it's a straight-pull bolt. The bolt, being further back than the handle, made it a lot easier to use. It is mag-fed though, and they managed to pack those 5 rounds in pretty tight, considering. I can only find barrel length with the breaching stand-off, 7.5". Lorcins KB! horribly. SKSs, don't. And SKSes were a main battle rifle at one point. I can put a thousand rounds downrange fairly accurately over the course of a year with a pistol. So, I guess laws don't apply then? WEEEEEE! Wolff. Springs. They'll fix many mag problems. Unless tecloader has some hidden website with videos, apparently NO ONE has ever done a video demo. Got any arguments towards the Remington's ruggedness? Any hard-core reliability tests?
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:10 pm
uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Sure hasn't stopped soldiers in the deserts, now has it? The rocks come out, as does the sand, and it still passes the full reliability tests every time. The 590 is even better at it, and has a higher capacity for the given model. The sand falls right out rather than being trapped, and the tolerances allow for sand, grit, fouling, et cetera. The 870Ps I've shot the last couple times damn near needed kicked open after about 150 trap loads through them. Once I get ot the range, I'll be testing that with the 500. I've never had problems with 870s binding. Quote: The MASTERKEY, an UNDER-BARREL SHOTGUN ATTACHMENT with a whopping 3 round magazine and extremely short barrel, was made in the 80s. We left VIETNAM in 1975. We also didn't have rails covering those M16s to attach a masterkey. The Masterkey was DESIGNED SOLELY FOR DOOR BREACHING without having to carry a full-sized shotgun. It's not a combat shotgun. It's a door breaching tool. And if they didn't think Remington was suited to the job, they could have use a Mossberg to the same effect. Also, the Ciener mount uses an extra-long pin (the upper/lower pin near the mag well) to bind the upper, lower, and Masterkey, and the mount also slides onto the bayonet lug. Technically the weapon was the "Ciener Ultimate Over/Under", but it's a Masterkey in all but name. Quote: Can you specifically place your thumb under stress? All I have ot do is cram the shell in. It goes in, my thumb comes out. No magical mojo necessary. And it comes with a 7+1 magazine from the factory. Then move your thumb outward. it's a quick lesson to learn. Speed is your friend, as is force. Thumb near the base of the rounds, sometimes even touching the clip, push straight down. Russians, Germans, Americans, damn near every country has done it at some point and not had a problem with it. It's how I naturally feed rounds, so yes. Curl your thumb a bit and it slaps against your thumb-knuckle instead of biting down on your thumbnail. Maybe it's the SMLE clips. Most, like SKS clips, are thin and C-shaped. SMLE clips, well... I always cut myself on the edges about four rounds in. And because the lay crooked, It's tough to get all the rounds in without using enough force to sever my thumb come slice-time. Oh, and en-bloc clips don't count here, because the entire clip goes in the gun. Quote: Have you ever broken a clip? I haven't. It's a simple strip of metal, rather than a mechanical structure in and of itself. No feed lips to bend, no spring to bind, no cleaning required. They rarely wear out (hell, most of them if they start wearing out, you just pinch them back together and they're good as new), and when they do it's not a tragedy. I've seen plenty of mags go out because of out-of-spec feed lips from plain use, worn out springs, and bad followers. You don't get that problem with clips. I HAVE bent clips so badly they're unusable. Got three SMLE clips that are bent so bad you can't load them. They've SKEWED. Quote: Also, the rich part was specifically mentioned because of your sneering tone towards the SKS and older rifles. Not all of us can afford a shiny AR-15, some of us can only afford the "60year-old clip-fed KOREA gun", and then afford to feed it to PRACTICE, which is even more important. This point is moot. I said if it's all you've got, use it. But it's NOT all he's got, he's got a plethora of other weapons to choose from. I'm suggesting he do so. Quote: And when you want a LOT of rounds down range at a distance, you get an ASSAULT rifle or an SMG. You should see the flaw in that argument. Quote: A RIFLE is for simple accurate fire at a distance--not volume of fire. I'd be more scared of Alvin York and his old bolt-action than any Tom, d**k, or Harry with an AK. And were YOU not one of the many who endorse the "don't shoot until they're too close NOT to, or they notice you" mind? And now you're espousing long-distance rapid-fire? By 'a lot' I meant volume, not speed. Quote: Ever convert a Saiga to be complaint? 9.22R, IRC, is what you have to comply with to use anything but the plain hunting-style stock. And it's not that cheap, since you have to buy a number of parts that are made in the US to comply. Who said you had to convert it? And let's assume you did convert it, who's going to come into your house, rip your gun apart, and determine which parts were or were not made in the US? Quote: I can buy M1 Carbine mags for $15 all day. Maybe cheaper, if I wasn't lazy about having a ready supply of GOOD $15 mags right here at the shop. It's a military gun. They made those things by the millions. Of course they're cheap. I've seen cheap AR-15 mags for 10-12 bucks each, and they work pretty well. Quote: Notice the third piece? That bolts on to some holes with pins already there. It guides the "clips" into the proper position for loading. Apparently, it's for 3-gun competitions. I just can't picture it working. I'd have to see a demonstration. I sure have had issues. The tolerances are TOO tight to really deal with high amounts of fouling. Could have been the WIN-X SUPER TARGETs we were using, but the Ithaca 37 we were somewhat competing with wasn't having issues. Other than not selling it to me, anyway. Could have just been that particular shotgun. Quote: Still wasn't developed until after Vietnam, and sees pretty limited use. Eh, so I got my time wrong. I thought they were in 'Nam, but whatever. Nowadays it's the Light Shotgun System... underbarrel, mag-fed semi-auto. Anyway, my point was that it was a military shotgun at one point. Quote: I don;t have to worry about it at all. *cram cram cram* done. Nagant clips are similar. You probably got some bad clips, like I did. The steel ones I got were fine, but too tight. I got some brass ones, and they were a bit sharp. They were home-made, to be fair. A couple seconds with my whetstone and it was better. Loads smooth, and a hell of a lot better than hand loading. They're still clips. THough it's a big step towards magazines, especially looking from the rear. I've got five brass Nagant clips that I use pretty heavily and they're still perfectly fine. They work better now, if anything, since the ends are now form-fit to my Nagant's loading port. "If it's all you've got..." Is one of the biggest class-based arguments ever used. "It's not quite good enough, but if it's all you've got..." That doesn't make it WRONG. Lorcin makes its living by "if it's all you've got". The best place to hide for a zombie apocalypse is a nuclear bomb shelter with a billion years of food and a thousand kinds of entertainment, but IF IT'S ALL YOU'VE GOT, boarding yourself in the attic would work. Quote: Yeah yeah, you can't get either. But that's their point. A plain-ol RIFLE is for accurate fire, NOT VOLUME. Hayha accounted for lots, and lots of kills with a simple Mosin Nagant and his skills. I think you're still misunderstanding me. I mean volume not relating to speed in any way. Like putting a thousand rounds downrange over the course of a year. Quote: "They'll never catch me" is not a valid argument when it comes to law. I suppose it's alright to have non-registered and non-stamped full-autos and suppressors and SBSes and SBRs as long as you don't get caught? Not to Big Sam. "They can't get the proof they need to bust me" IS a valid argument. Quote: NEW production. Ironically, Korean. Never left the packaging, made last month. Mine were Chinese, I think. All steel, no mfg. stamps. Got 'em for $10. One of them is a bit fuzzy occasionally, but it's not bad. It just lets the bolt slam home on empty sometimes. Quote: I've looked for one. I can't find ANYTHING on their use. Did I mention that the Mossberg 500 passed the 3443E test, which is 3,000 rounds of full-power buckshot? Now, 3443G requires a metal trigger guard, so new models are disqualified by that, with the 590 taking up that gauntlet. Remington didn't even put an offering in. Considering the sheer number of 870s having the problem, doesn't seem like it. They could have been picky, but they started out fine. I say they need another extractor, or maybe a slightly larger chamber (wider). Actually, the currect underbarrel system is a straight-pull bolt, not semi-auto. When I saw it for the first time, I coudl swear it was semi-auto, but it's a straight-pull bolt. The bolt, being further back than the handle, made it a lot easier to use. It is mag-fed though, and they managed to pack those 5 rounds in pretty tight, considering. I can only find barrel length with the breaching stand-off, 7.5". Lorcins KB! horribly. SKSs, don't. And SKSes were a main battle rifle at one point. Lorcin makes their living by being DIRT CHEAP. They're not good, but they're better than NO gun. Quote: I can put a thousand rounds downrange fairly accurately over the course of a year with a pistol. Not at the same range, and not as accurately. Quote: So, I guess laws don't apply then? WEEEEEE! Only if they can't make it stick. Quote: Wolff. Springs. They'll fix many mag problems. Nah, it needs a new follower. I just can't be arsed. Quote: Unless tecloader has some hidden website with videos, apparently NO ONE has ever done a video demo. Got any arguments towards the Remington's ruggedness? Any hard-core reliability tests? Still arguing by omission. Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be. I wouldn't know where to look, and a quick google turned up a bunch of bullshit, half of which wasn't even related to Remington Firearms. Ooh, this is worth noting, though.
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:04 pm
Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel I've never had problems with 870s binding. And if they didn't think Remington was suited to the job, they could have use a Mossberg to the same effect. Also, the Ciener mount uses an extra-long pin (the upper/lower pin near the mag well) to bind the upper, lower, and Masterkey, and the mount also slides onto the bayonet lug. Technically the weapon was the "Ciener Ultimate Over/Under", but it's a Masterkey in all but name. It's how I naturally feed rounds, so yes. Curl your thumb a bit and it slaps against your thumb-knuckle instead of biting down on your thumbnail. Maybe it's the SMLE clips. Most, like SKS clips, are thin and C-shaped. SMLE clips, well... I always cut myself on the edges about four rounds in. And because the lay crooked, It's tough to get all the rounds in without using enough force to sever my thumb come slice-time. Oh, and en-bloc clips don't count here, because the entire clip goes in the gun. I HAVE bent clips so badly they're unusable. Got three SMLE clips that are bent so bad you can't load them. They've SKEWED. This point is moot. I said if it's all you've got, use it. But it's NOT all he's got, he's got a plethora of other weapons to choose from. I'm suggesting he do so. You should see the flaw in that argument. By 'a lot' I meant volume, not speed. Who said you had to convert it? And let's assume you did convert it, who's going to come into your house, rip your gun apart, and determine which parts were or were not made in the US? It's a military gun. They made those things by the millions. Of course they're cheap. I've seen cheap AR-15 mags for 10-12 bucks each, and they work pretty well. I just can't picture it working. I'd have to see a demonstration. I sure have had issues. The tolerances are TOO tight to really deal with high amounts of fouling. Could have been the WIN-X SUPER TARGETs we were using, but the Ithaca 37 we were somewhat competing with wasn't having issues. Other than not selling it to me, anyway. Could have just been that particular shotgun. Quote: Still wasn't developed until after Vietnam, and sees pretty limited use. Eh, so I got my time wrong. I thought they were in 'Nam, but whatever. Nowadays it's the Light Shotgun System... underbarrel, mag-fed semi-auto. Anyway, my point was that it was a military shotgun at one point. Quote: I don;t have to worry about it at all. *cram cram cram* done. Nagant clips are similar. You probably got some bad clips, like I did. The steel ones I got were fine, but too tight. I got some brass ones, and they were a bit sharp. They were home-made, to be fair. A couple seconds with my whetstone and it was better. Loads smooth, and a hell of a lot better than hand loading. They're still clips. THough it's a big step towards magazines, especially looking from the rear. I've got five brass Nagant clips that I use pretty heavily and they're still perfectly fine. They work better now, if anything, since the ends are now form-fit to my Nagant's loading port. "If it's all you've got..." Is one of the biggest class-based arguments ever used. "It's not quite good enough, but if it's all you've got..." That doesn't make it WRONG. Lorcin makes its living by "if it's all you've got". The best place to hide for a zombie apocalypse is a nuclear bomb shelter with a billion years of food and a thousand kinds of entertainment, but IF IT'S ALL YOU'VE GOT, boarding yourself in the attic would work. Quote: Yeah yeah, you can't get either. But that's their point. A plain-ol RIFLE is for accurate fire, NOT VOLUME. Hayha accounted for lots, and lots of kills with a simple Mosin Nagant and his skills. I think you're still misunderstanding me. I mean volume not relating to speed in any way. Like putting a thousand rounds downrange over the course of a year. Quote: "They'll never catch me" is not a valid argument when it comes to law. I suppose it's alright to have non-registered and non-stamped full-autos and suppressors and SBSes and SBRs as long as you don't get caught? Not to Big Sam. "They can't get the proof they need to bust me" IS a valid argument. Quote: NEW production. Ironically, Korean. Never left the packaging, made last month. Mine were Chinese, I think. All steel, no mfg. stamps. Got 'em for $10. One of them is a bit fuzzy occasionally, but it's not bad. It just lets the bolt slam home on empty sometimes. Quote: I've looked for one. I can't find ANYTHING on their use. Did I mention that the Mossberg 500 passed the 3443E test, which is 3,000 rounds of full-power buckshot? Now, 3443G requires a metal trigger guard, so new models are disqualified by that, with the 590 taking up that gauntlet. Remington didn't even put an offering in. Considering the sheer number of 870s having the problem, doesn't seem like it. They could have been picky, but they started out fine. I say they need another extractor, or maybe a slightly larger chamber (wider). Actually, the currect underbarrel system is a straight-pull bolt, not semi-auto. When I saw it for the first time, I coudl swear it was semi-auto, but it's a straight-pull bolt. The bolt, being further back than the handle, made it a lot easier to use. It is mag-fed though, and they managed to pack those 5 rounds in pretty tight, considering. I can only find barrel length with the breaching stand-off, 7.5". Lorcins KB! horribly. SKSs, don't. And SKSes were a main battle rifle at one point. Lorcin makes their living by being DIRT CHEAP. They're not good, but they're better than NO gun. Quote: I can put a thousand rounds downrange fairly accurately over the course of a year with a pistol. Not at the same range, and not as accurately. Quote: So, I guess laws don't apply then? WEEEEEE! Only if they can't make it stick. Quote: Wolff. Springs. They'll fix many mag problems. Nah, it needs a new follower. I just can't be arsed. Quote: Unless tecloader has some hidden website with videos, apparently NO ONE has ever done a video demo. Got any arguments towards the Remington's ruggedness? Any hard-core reliability tests? Still arguing by omission. Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be. I wouldn't know where to look, and a quick google turned up a bunch of bullshit, half of which wasn't even related to Remington Firearms. Ooh, this is worth noting, though. I could argue about the Lorcin, but it really depends on how old it is. The new ones aren't as bad as the old ones (which had a habit of violently self-disassembling after a round or two) At the ranges you should be shooting (which reiterates the point mentioned many times throughout the two threads, and two guilds, that you should not be sniping and shooting should be last-resort) It's damn near null. If you have any pistol skill, anyway, and it isn't slopped-up. s**t, I haven't looked around at followers. Though I STILL suggest Wolff springs in any that are weakening, unless you happen to have some crazy high-end springs from competition. Really, they are both good shotguns, but there are key differences. The 870 is most well-known for factory variety, and age. They have a factory model for damn near everything. And that model has probably been around a while, too. But the Mossberg has focused their design around reliability, with several key features. Those are two extractors, and a very strong barrel to bolt lockup. It's an extremely simple design, to boot. And they did it economically. It was entirely designed to be abused. I don't know how much it matters, but the M500 receivers are all drilled and tapped for sight mounts. I didn't notice until it was mentioned to me, but upon inspection, there are indeed four screws filling and guarding the holes. I don't go for holosights on shotguns, but if that's your thing...
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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:40 pm
uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida Fresnel uryu ishida I sure have had issues. The tolerances are TOO tight to really deal with high amounts of fouling. Could have been the WIN-X SUPER TARGETs we were using, but the Ithaca 37 we were somewhat competing with wasn't having issues. Other than not selling it to me, anyway. Could have just been that particular shotgun. Quote: Still wasn't developed until after Vietnam, and sees pretty limited use. Eh, so I got my time wrong. I thought they were in 'Nam, but whatever. Nowadays it's the Light Shotgun System... underbarrel, mag-fed semi-auto. Anyway, my point was that it was a military shotgun at one point. Quote: I don;t have to worry about it at all. *cram cram cram* done. Nagant clips are similar. You probably got some bad clips, like I did. The steel ones I got were fine, but too tight. I got some brass ones, and they were a bit sharp. They were home-made, to be fair. A couple seconds with my whetstone and it was better. Loads smooth, and a hell of a lot better than hand loading. They're still clips. THough it's a big step towards magazines, especially looking from the rear. I've got five brass Nagant clips that I use pretty heavily and they're still perfectly fine. They work better now, if anything, since the ends are now form-fit to my Nagant's loading port. "If it's all you've got..." Is one of the biggest class-based arguments ever used. "It's not quite good enough, but if it's all you've got..." That doesn't make it WRONG. Lorcin makes its living by "if it's all you've got". The best place to hide for a zombie apocalypse is a nuclear bomb shelter with a billion years of food and a thousand kinds of entertainment, but IF IT'S ALL YOU'VE GOT, boarding yourself in the attic would work. Quote: Yeah yeah, you can't get either. But that's their point. A plain-ol RIFLE is for accurate fire, NOT VOLUME. Hayha accounted for lots, and lots of kills with a simple Mosin Nagant and his skills. I think you're still misunderstanding me. I mean volume not relating to speed in any way. Like putting a thousand rounds downrange over the course of a year. Quote: "They'll never catch me" is not a valid argument when it comes to law. I suppose it's alright to have non-registered and non-stamped full-autos and suppressors and SBSes and SBRs as long as you don't get caught? Not to Big Sam. "They can't get the proof they need to bust me" IS a valid argument. Quote: NEW production. Ironically, Korean. Never left the packaging, made last month. Mine were Chinese, I think. All steel, no mfg. stamps. Got 'em for $10. One of them is a bit fuzzy occasionally, but it's not bad. It just lets the bolt slam home on empty sometimes. Quote: I've looked for one. I can't find ANYTHING on their use. Did I mention that the Mossberg 500 passed the 3443E test, which is 3,000 rounds of full-power buckshot? Now, 3443G requires a metal trigger guard, so new models are disqualified by that, with the 590 taking up that gauntlet. Remington didn't even put an offering in. Considering the sheer number of 870s having the problem, doesn't seem like it. They could have been picky, but they started out fine. I say they need another extractor, or maybe a slightly larger chamber (wider). Actually, the currect underbarrel system is a straight-pull bolt, not semi-auto. When I saw it for the first time, I coudl swear it was semi-auto, but it's a straight-pull bolt. The bolt, being further back than the handle, made it a lot easier to use. It is mag-fed though, and they managed to pack those 5 rounds in pretty tight, considering. I can only find barrel length with the breaching stand-off, 7.5". Lorcins KB! horribly. SKSs, don't. And SKSes were a main battle rifle at one point. Lorcin makes their living by being DIRT CHEAP. They're not good, but they're better than NO gun. Quote: I can put a thousand rounds downrange fairly accurately over the course of a year with a pistol. Not at the same range, and not as accurately. Quote: So, I guess laws don't apply then? WEEEEEE! Only if they can't make it stick. Quote: Wolff. Springs. They'll fix many mag problems. Nah, it needs a new follower. I just can't be arsed. Quote: Unless tecloader has some hidden website with videos, apparently NO ONE has ever done a video demo. Got any arguments towards the Remington's ruggedness? Any hard-core reliability tests? Still arguing by omission. Just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't be. I wouldn't know where to look, and a quick google turned up a bunch of bullshit, half of which wasn't even related to Remington Firearms. Ooh, this is worth noting, though. I could argue about the Lorcin, but it really depends on how old it is. The new ones aren't as bad as the old ones (which had a habit of violently self-disassembling after a round or two) At the ranges you should be shooting (which reiterates the point mentioned many times throughout the two threads, and two guilds, that you should not be sniping and shooting should be last-resort) It's damn near null. If you have any pistol skill, anyway, and it isn't slopped-up. s**t, I haven't looked around at followers. Though I STILL suggest Wolff springs in any that are weakening, unless you happen to have some crazy high-end springs from competition. Really, they are both good shotguns, but there are key differences. The 870 is most well-known for factory variety, and age. They have a factory model for damn near everything. And that model has probably been around a while, too. But the Mossberg has focused their design around reliability, with several key features. Those are two extractors, and a very strong barrel to bolt lockup. It's an extremely simple design, to boot. And they did it economically. It was entirely designed to be abused. I don't know how much it matters, but the M500 receivers are all drilled and tapped for sight mounts. I didn't notice until it was mentioned to me, but upon inspection, there are indeed four screws filling and guarding the holes. I don't go for holosights on shotguns, but if that's your thing... Lorcins are the epitome of the Saturday Night Special. Guns for the rich, guns for the poor, guns for everyone! Even a gun you know might kill you is better than being defenseless against a mugger who you know will. I still trust myself more with a rifle than a pistol. I dunno WTF is up... somedays I can drill every shot, some days I can't hit the target. I've gone from almost missing a 16" pizza box at ten feet to going two-for-two (50 rounds = 8 7-round mags and two stragglers. I got the stragglers) with the Texas Star at 30. BUT, that's me, and not a general statement. At a certain point, even when they're far out at a distance, you HAVE to make the shot. And a .308 is quieter than a .223... really though, all guns are loud. It's unavoidable. However, one single shot is untraceable. I'd rather have that one shot knock the target down than risk having to take a second. .308 is at the high end of common, semi-auto rifle calibers that are worthwhile for survival. I've never had a spring weaken, really. The problem is that the follower is slightly malformed, and the edge that's supposed to catch the bolt is rounded, or falls in the wrong place, or it's too short, or something like that. Replacing it will fix that. It did with the one I replaced to be a single-round sled. The Remington 870 is the #1 best-selling shotgun of all time. There's a LOT of different kinds of 500/590, but the 870 still outsells them both. They market to various militaries and police forces all over the world, and they sell to many of them. They even have the 7600 line of spin-off rifles in larger hunting calibers, and having seen one shot, they're incredible. It makes me wonder why nobody else ever did it. And for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure 870s are drilled and tapped also. I know some are, but I think they all are. I've always been curious to see a holosight on a shotgun, but I'unno. I guess it's for a slug-gun conversion? Rifled barrels are only a hundred bucks or so, and then you can mount a scope.
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