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The term "alternative rock" has and still is very confused amongst the general public as well as the Gaia community. The reason for this confusion can be found in the fact that there are two definitions for this term when used in music discussion. In this thread, I will describe to you the two definitions.


The Condition of Alternative.

The first definition is the condition of being alternative. This is any music that isn't mainstream. Just like the condition of indie (that being a band signed to an independent label), no one type or genre of music can be associated with this condition. This definition was useful during the early 80's when new genres such as punk and goth (any genre that isn't mainstream rock) were gaining an underground cult-like following that was alternative to the entirely rock mainstream. However, during the late 80's and early 90's, that which was called "alternative" was gaining mainstream success and, therefore, was making this term obsolete. An alternative rock band cannot be a mainstream hit because, according to this definition, it is no longer alternative. What would it be an alternative to? Itself? All in all, this definition describes every non-mainstream band from 1975 to 1990.


The Scene and Sound of Alternative Rock.

The second definition of alternative rock is a sound of music that has developed during the timespan that the conditional definition covered. At the time, a collection of bands were taking the punk rock ethos and expanding artistically upon it (academically call "post-punk" wink . Eventually, these bands could not be placed in the genres of punk rock, gothic rock, or emocore and was simply called "alternative rock" as they generally performed a rock sound that had a pension for a harder or more experimental edge.

Perhaps one of the most diverse scene in all of music, the sound of alternative rock can be shown to be the result of two bands; Husker Du and The Replacements. Both having routes in hardcore punk and having formed in the early 80's, they where close contemporaries and would even reference each other in live performances. Eventually, these two bands lead to the formation of several other alternative bands. In fact, Pixies have claimed Husker Du as a major influence.

Around the same time, another originator of alternative rock, R.E.M. who came out of the post-punk scene of Athens, Georgia (in the same vain of bands like Talking Heads and Pylon), were touring with Black Flag all over the nation. R.E.M.'s less aggressive but more poetic form of alternative rock lead them to be championed by college radio stations around the nation (thus alternative rock before the "explosion" were called college rock) and were the first (and arguably only) alternative rock band able to cross into the mainstream exposure without jeopardizing their sound or self-imploding.

By the mid-90's, the steam had began to run out as alternative rock bands started to break-up (Meat Puppets, Pixies), move to more pop-oriented music (Flaming Lips, Dinosaur Jr.), or began to continue on in a quasi-cult status (Sonic Youth). On top of this, Grunge had reached a level of popularity that had splintered the scene between indie and major label ethics (a splinter that directly spawned indie rock). Post-grunge can be seen as a second wave of alternative rock as many former grunge bands took more interest in the late 80's alternative and began to emulate it. Although a few alternative rock bands continue to play today, 1997 can be pointed to as the death year for the overall artistic movement. However, in recent years, many alternative rock bands such as the Pixies, Dinosaur Jr, Meat Puppets, etc. have been reuniting and touring.

Alternative rock bands: Husker Du, The Replacements, The Jesus and Mary Chain, Dinosaur Jr, Pixies, Sonic Youth, Meat Puppets, Throwing Muses, The Flaming Lips, REM, Joy Division, The Breeders, fIREHOSE among others

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Indie Rock versus Alternative Rock

There exists quite a lot of confusion between whether certain bands are alternative rock or whether they are indie rock. This confusion is understandable and expected. Particularly in the early days of alternative rock, indie rock was used interchangeably with alternative rock and was generally preferred by the artists of the genre (if they would ever had to refer to it which most seem not to want to). A good example of this use can be found in Sebadoh's single "Gimme Indie Rock" which name drops half of the bands that I've mentioned in the definition above. The use of the term indie rock grew in popularity just as Nirvana hit big and was lauded by the media as the leaders of alternative rock. Of course, this wasn't true as alternative rock wasn't unified enough to warrant such a movement or a leader.

And this is what distinguishes the differences between alternative rock and indie rock. Before Nirvana hit big, it was the goal of every alternative rock band to get as famous as they could. However, after Nirvana hit, there was a backlash that lasts to this day that attempts to refrain from having any significant role in mainstream music. This is why the word indie (meaning independently released) is used. Alternative rock generally wanted to get famous while also drawing from a strong hardcore ethic while indie rock is further distanced from punk but tries to stay underground. But musically, while some genres can seem like a parent to the genre that follows, the alternative/indie question can be seen more as a "name change" as a lot of the ethos lives on in indie rock. And since neither of them are a genre, people that consider them to be a stupid and more than likely looking for a subculture to call their own because they are boring. Blah.

Rules of discussion:
- If you're going to b***h about alternative rock, please specify which definition you are having problems with understanding.
- Don't quote the first post (this post).

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Stuff to watch:

Hüsker Dü playing "Chartered Trips" live.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aXrew70Qas

R.E.M.'s historical performance of "Radio Free Europe" on Late Show with David Letterman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA57Pafq_NU

Sonic Youth's "Teenage Riot"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rgBPMMJtIg

Throwing Muses' "Counting Backwards"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Z-VC2k1yI

Pixies become the first of many to reunite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvSCNrlX9zI
Dalai_Lama
You are the first person to mention that Alternative Rock is not mainstream. Some of the Alternative Rock bands are getting awards from MTV so are they still Alt. Rock?

That is hard to say....

I would say they are alternative because they are apart of a genre that has been underground for a long while.

However, I would say no because that formerly underground sound is the new mainstream and thus they are not alternative.


I can't say... I personally go with the belief that neither they, nor their individual sound, are alternative but their genre is underground
good info.
I'm into black & death metal though...
Demonik
good info.
I'm into black & death metal though...

s**t... sorry there

I suggest the metal subforum, bud
Citizen Insane
Now I know what most of you people are thinking, "But Citizen, thar be teh other 101 threds and alt rock ish too big to cover lol." Well, billybobjimbobjack, the Alternative Rock 101 thread has been created to explain one of the most ambiguous genres of music (*ahem*... alternative rock) as well as to be a junction in which you can find all of the other 101 threads that fall under Alternative Rock. Hopefully, this thread will become a place to discuss the genres that aren't popular enough to desearve individual 101 threads (grunge, college rock, progressive rock, etc.).

The format is simple. Below shall be a list of all the genres that belong to Alternative Rock followed by a small history/description. After this, there should be a link to a cooresponding thread (if it has one) or the screenname of a Gaian whom you may PM your questions and comments. NOTICE: If a genre lacks either a link or a screenname below it, we are lacking the the link or position. Please contact me or post here with the appropriate information, thank you.


Alternative Rock (in general)
- Alternative rock is the name given to genres that have either began in or has always been underground. Underground simply means that the genre/artist/whatever is not featured in the mainstream (radio, MTV, FUSE, movie soundtracks, etc.) often if not ever. The term "Alternative Rock" was created in the early 80's when the English punk movement began to become noticed by the masses. Although some genres are not directly connect with the punk movement, punk has is credited with the forging of most of these genres. Alternative Rock includes many subcategories including but not limited to Grunge, Hard Rock, Brit Pop, Experimental Rock, Progressive Rock, College Rock, Gothic Rock, Heavy Metal, Punk Rock, Power Pop, Hardcore Punk, New Wave,and Emo.



Grunge
- In the mid 80's a small movement was brewing in an unlikely place, Seattle, Washington. This movement was not actually lead by Nirvana as many have said when they released "Nevermind" in September of 91 but actually went back to other Seattle bands like Melvins and Mudhoney. While alternative music was a term for underground rock bands, Grunge bands combined guitar rock with punk and metal to give birth to a new movement. By the mid 90s the two movements combined in the eyes of the public to one big genre known as grunge. As a offshoot of this situation rock emerged and returned to the roots of the alternative movement and took the mantle of what was formerly known as alternative or college rock. Grunge moved from a local sound in Seattle through national and international venues. With the break up of Soundgarden, the SUICIDE of Kurt Cobain (grunge's poster child), and the mass-marketing of the movement, Grunge quickly feel from the mainstream. Although Grunge is still a major influence of many modern artists and is still lurking far underground, Grunge is considered "dead" by most. Bands that are considered Grunge are Green River, Tad, Mudhoney, Soundgarden, King Snake Roost, Pearl Jam, Lubricated Goat, Nirvana, Surgery, Helmet,Alice in Chains, Tar, Silverfish, Melvins, Cows, Steel Pole Bath Tub, amongst may others.

*we are currently missing a link or user for this genre*




Progressive Rock
- Progressive rock is a very general and intertwined genre of music which got its start in the late 60s, and continues to this day. Progressive rock is often lumped together with other similar genres like art rock, symphonic rock, and progressive heavy metal. The artists try to take the roots of rock and apply them to a more classically influenced structure. The music is often very elaborate and generally requires very exceptional musicians with a great deal of talent. It is not unusual for prog rock pieces to be very lengthy in some cases they are over an hour in length. Echoes by Pink Floyd is an early example of this phenomenon and the tradition continues to this day in other pieces like Garden of Dreams by the Flower Kings to name just one. It is also not unusual for the songs to be subdivided in to subpieces, a normal device in classical composing. The lyrics are complex and carefully constructed, coving an almost limitless subject matter including but not limited to social and political commentary. Another staple of the genre is albums incorporating a theme or set of themes like Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis, and Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd or more recently Snow by Spock's Beard. Some of the unusual devices used in this style of music are unusual vocal phrasing, use of classical or electronic instruments, layered vocal harmonies, unusual or multiple time signatures, liberal use of techniques from other genres, unusual scales and tunings, incredibly complex instrumental moments or solos, and multiple tempos. Rush released their pivotal Fly By Night album the band changed its approach to create music some argue is the cornerstone for the movement. They continued to push the envelope of music on albums like Hemispheres and A Farewell to Kings defining and redefining the genre as they went. Bands like King Crimson, Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Dream Theater, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Marillion, Spock's Beard, Flower Kings, and Symphony X are also all classic examples of progressive rock.

*we are currently missing a link or user for this genre*




Punk Rock
- Punk rock got its name from the slang word punk meaning rotten and worthless. It was originally used to describe simple guitar based rock of bands like The Seeds, and later on Detroit bands like The Stooges and MC5. The anti-establishment ethic of punk hit a fevered pitch in 1976 through 1980, started partially as a backlash to the hippie movement of the late 60's. Many of these bands also intended to shock mainstream society, rejecting the "peace and love" image of the prior musical rebellion of the 1960s which had degenerated, punks thought, into mellow disco culture. The fashion of the time included mohawks, body piercing with safety pins and conversion of unusual items into clothing and was very shocking to outsiders at the time. Punk rock embodied the ideals that anyone could start a punk rock band. Punk was stripped-down, three-chord music that could be played fairly easily. The lyrics introduced a new honesty of expression in matters both political and sexual freeing the artist to write in a more personal and honest way. Using cover songs as a ironic form of social commentary was a common theme among many artists. The emphasis in punk rock was placed on emotion and energy and not strictly musicianship. It's best known bands are the punk rock holy trinity of the Sex Pistols, The Damned, and The Clash who many feel are the defining bands of the genre. The roots of punk rock were dark psychedelic and garage rock, glam rock, new wave music and the unusual and sporadic style of the immortal Velvet Underground, long thought to be the originators of punk rock. Later bands incorporated punk and ska elements which were largely unknown in the rock genre.

Please visit the Official Punk Thread -
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1373204&highlight=



Britpop
- Britpop followed the "indie" scene of the eighties, characterised by bands such as The Smiths, and its successors: "baggy", typified by Manchester's (or should that be Madchester's) The Stone Roses, The Happy Mondays and "shoegazing" bands such as Ride. The Britpop groups were influenced by music from the 1960s and 70s, particularly the mod style of groups like The Small Faces, The Kinks and The Jam, and the pre-Britpop New Wave Of New Wave scene, typified by These Animal Men and S*M*A*S*H shows these influences particularly strongly. It should also be noted the The Stone Roses and their referencing of 70s rock music was an influence on the Britpop sound, which in the case of bands like Kula Shaker moved towards psychedelia. Overall, Britpop tended to emphasise the use of guitars as a reaction to the electronic crossover style of the indie-dance scene that preceded it, though some synth bands, such as Stereolab and Saint Etienne (both of whom had existed long before the emergence of Britpop itself), did find themselves hailed as part of the Britpop scene. Indeed, Saint Etienne's Foxbase Alpha (1990) was even hailed - in retrospect - as the first real Britpop LP. Although its synth-and-sample-based arrangements bore little resemblance to anything else that came out of the scene, bands like Blur, Pulp and Elastica also incorporated synthesisers into their sound. So while the sounds of and influences on Britpop bands were diverse, perhaps the defining feature was a celebration of 'British-ness', as a reaction to both US grunge bands who were dominating the alternative music scene and manufactured pop in the charts. Unlike their predecessors, Britpop crossed firmly into the mainstream, exemplified by chart battles between rivals Blur and Oasis. Their songs tend to be either pure pop music (Blur's "Girls and Boys" wink or anthemic (Oasis' "Don't Look Back In Anger" wink , with a strong "sing-along" factor. Alongside this, the dry wit of Pulp's "Common People" made an unlikely star of singer Jarvis Cocker. While male-dominated bands such as Supergrass, Menswear and Heavy Stereo took much of the glory, female-fronted groups like Echobelly, Sleeper and Salad also enjoyed substantial album sales. By the year 2000, the initial wave had subsided: Oasis had all but collapsed under the weight of expectation, cocaine and self-indulgence, Blur had rejected pop for a more introspective sound, and Radiohead had decided they were a progressive rock band.

Please PM "Eddie Satan" (minus the " marks) for more information



New Wave
- Record executives had missed the marketing bandwagon with the punk rock movement (due to the fact most punk albums were released independently). Determined not to let that happen again they began signing and promoting post punk bands or New Wave acts as they were beginning to be called very aggressively in the early 80's. Drawing heavily from glam rock and the industrial music genres the music was defined very broadly including everyone from acts like Devo and Madness to the Police. Bands like The Cars, The Go-Go's, The Pretenders, and others were basically pop bands that had fallen under the label new wave. Some bands like Flock of Seagulls and Wham were post punk bands who heavily influenced by the synth driven sounds of the 80's incorporating these influences into new wave hits which, made popular by MTV, heavily drove album sales for a time. Other bands like Devo and Madness were heavily influenced by punk combining it with the electronic synthesizers of industrial music to make what is arguably something very akin in spirit to the punk rock movement of the 70's. Eventually the movement collapsed under its own weight and punk returned to its roots with the hardcore punk movement. A few bands like The Police and The Pretenders managed to survive and even flourish after the fall of new wave although many argue they never deserved to be classified as new wave in the first place.

*we are currently missing a link or user for this genre*



Heavy Metal
- The history of heavy metal music began around 1964-1970 with bands like the Kinks, the Who, Alice Cooper's The Spiders, Cream, Golden Earring, Led Zeppelin, Vanilla Fudge, the Jimi Hendrix Experience, Iron Butterfly, Steppenwolf, Blue Cheer, Atomic Rooster, Cactus, Grand Funk Railroad, Deep Purple, Free, Uriah Heep, Mountain, Bloodrock, Black Widow, and Black Sabbath, Iron Butterfly Heavy album and Steppenwolf's song Born to Be Wild which contained the phrase "heavy metal thunder" share credit for the name heavy metal. The genre borrowed heavily from rock and the blues but moved towards a more aggressive direction than other bands from the 60's incorporating energetic live shows and darker melodies and themes. In 1970 Black Sabbath made what many consider to be the first true heavy metal album self titled Black Sabbath followed in the next few years by Paranoid and Master of Reality. Guitarist Tony Iommi, vocalist Ozzy Osbourne, drummer Bill Ward, and bassist Geezer Butler churned out gloomy heavy churning riffs and rhythms accompanied nicely by Ozzy's eerie vocal style. This Birmingham act nearly single handedly defined the essence of the heavy metal genre combining a fascination with dark mythological and religious subject matter juxtaposed against the reality of a working class life in poverty ridden industrial Birmingham during the early 70's. Newer bands like Judas Priest, Queen and Blue Oyster Cult took up the mantle of these older bands and added their voice to an ever growing revolution in rock music. Queen was the most experimental of the groups combining interesting and beautiful melodies with classically inspired harmonies which bordered on progressive and experimental rock. Kiss took the genre to a fevered pitch using classic elements of theatre such as fire and fake blood to keep audiences interested. In the late 70's heavy metal went through a decline and the giants of the early 70's started to loose influence due to deaths and personnel changes. AC/DC, Judas Priest, Queen, and Rush kept the genre alive but only just. The early 1980s saw a revival of metal of a sort with bands like Ozzy Osbourne and Motley Crue among others. Unfortunately due to highly commercialized excess driven hair bands the genre was sent in to another decline where the music would be reabsorbed into new genres. By around 1990 most heavy metal had evolved into other rock genres like hard rock, grunge, gothic rock, gothic metal, thrash metal, speed metal, doom metal, and nu metal.





I ain't finished yet!
more genres to come.... 3nodding


punk and heavy metal arent alternative at all
Jacoblp
Citizen Insane
Please do not bump the first post!


punk and heavy metal arent alternative at all

Both have always and still have a huge underground presence.

They are alternative.
Quote:
punk and heavy metal arent alternative at all


Yes they are,

how on earh can you justify either genre being unalternative?
well I finished that...

time to fancy it up a bit
Citizen Insane
well I finished that...

time to fancy it up a bit


nice work by the way
Eddie Satan
Citizen Insane
well I finished that...

time to fancy it up a bit


nice work by the way

I guess... I wonder how many typos there are up in that s**t
Citizen Insane
Eddie Satan
Citizen Insane
well I finished that...

time to fancy it up a bit


nice work by the way

I guess... I wonder how many typos there are up in that s**t


about 8,

i put it into a word doc
Eddie Satan
Citizen Insane
Eddie Satan
Citizen Insane
well I finished that...

time to fancy it up a bit


nice work by the way

I guess... I wonder how many typos there are up in that s**t


about 8,

i put it into a word doc

gonk

oh well
Citizen Insane
Eddie Satan
Citizen Insane
Eddie Satan
Citizen Insane
well I finished that...

time to fancy it up a bit


nice work by the way

I guess... I wonder how many typos there are up in that s**t


about 8,

i put it into a word doc

gonk

oh well


did you get my pm?
Eddie Satan
Citizen Insane
Eddie Satan
Citizen Insane
Eddie Satan
Citizen Insane
well I finished that...

time to fancy it up a bit


nice work by the way

I guess... I wonder how many typos there are up in that s**t


about 8,

i put it into a word doc

gonk

oh well


did you get my pm?

Yep. Used most of them. sorry if I left out the last two but I didn't really need em

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