Kalthanis
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- Posted: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:47:21 +0000
Please Note: Consider Drakon Seveya a 'moderator' of sorts of this thread. He is learned in the art of the Katana, and is happy to bequeath his knowledge onto you. At least, he tells me.
This started as a rant about how too many people used katana. Its pretty much now an info thread (after about 30 minutes XD).
When I wrote this thread, I believe katana were two-handed. A comment on the Katana Wikipedia Page both enforced my belief and hurt it:
Most of the techniques were two-handed. But, there were one-handed techniques. I found more on Wikipedia that stated katana were, on average, about 65cm long, which made me think katana would be pretty hard to use one-handed. After I recieved a PM from Drakon Seveya, I knew I was right as he is trained in the katana. He told me that katana were light. However, he said that while it is possible, it is difficult to wield a katana one-handed, even though he also said they were made to be one-handed (the full PM can be found in the quote section).
I also read this, which made me believe katana were soft:
But the folding process in which the Japanese invented and used in swordsmithing, did the following:
This is all the information I have managed to locate thus far. Help the thread out:
- Bump!
- Donate some of your nice info.
- Direct others to this thread.
Quotes from people:
Takori PMed me after I first opened this thread...
And (after I asked if I could use her quote) she says...
And then she sent me pictures of the man (Drakon Seveya) with his sword.
Picture
Picture
Picture
Drakon Seveya sent me this PM and gives some nice info.
Sneaky Martith said this.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Katanas (at least) were they not supierior simply due to the method used to create them (the Folded steel gave them a 'cat claw' type effect where as the more you used it, the sharper it became)?
While it proved to be wrong, it did open my eyes to the folding process.
Since I've played several RPGs, and am on the topic of katana, I found something about Masamune, who is actually a Japanese Swordsmith, but the name Masamune is used in katana-like swords in Final Fantasy. You also might have heard of Muramasa (sometimes misspelled as Murasame), who was also a swordsmith, but has a two-handed sword in Ragnarok Online named after him, which is also katana-like. Here is a legend about the two (which has to be false, as they lived in complete different times) which says that while Masamune made holy swords, Muramasa made evil, blood-thirsty swords. This was enforced by the face that in Masamune's time, swords were more of an artform, as the Japanese weren't at war, but during Muramasa's time, swords were made more for battle.
Well, heres the legend:
Thanks for reading my thread. I hope it has given a new light on the katana to you.
All credit goes to the giver of the information they have given. Yeah.
This started as a rant about how too many people used katana. Its pretty much now an info thread (after about 30 minutes XD).
When I wrote this thread, I believe katana were two-handed. A comment on the Katana Wikipedia Page both enforced my belief and hurt it:
Quote:
The hilt of the katana is often held with two hands, though a fair amount of one-handed techniques exist.
Wikipedia
Most of the techniques were two-handed. But, there were one-handed techniques. I found more on Wikipedia that stated katana were, on average, about 65cm long, which made me think katana would be pretty hard to use one-handed. After I recieved a PM from Drakon Seveya, I knew I was right as he is trained in the katana. He told me that katana were light. However, he said that while it is possible, it is difficult to wield a katana one-handed, even though he also said they were made to be one-handed (the full PM can be found in the quote section).
I also read this, which made me believe katana were soft:
Quote:
Traditional Japanese steel is popularly considered to be one of the best for creating swords, but the true reasons for this are artistic and not functional - contemporary western steels were and most modern steels are actually superior in strength and purity.
Wikipedia
But the folding process in which the Japanese invented and used in swordsmithing, did the following:
Quote:
The most famous part of the manufacturing process [of the katana] was the folding of the steel. Steel was repeatedly 'folded', bent over itself and hammered flat. This did several things:
* It eliminated any bubbles in the metal.
* It homogenized the metal, spreading the elements (such as carbon) evenly throughout - increasing the effective strength by decreasing the number of potential weak points.
* It created layers, by continuously decarburizing the surface and bringing the surface into the blade's interior, which gives the swords their unique and beautiful grain. Despite widespread popular belief that the layered structure provides enhanced mechanical properties of the steel, this is completely false. Layers act as weld points which can only serve to weaken the integrity of the blade. (Bulat steel layering is an entirely different chemical effect, and does not apply to blades made in the Japanese fashion.)
* It burned off many impurities, again helping to overcome the Japanese steel's poor quality and purify/strengthen the sword.
* It eliminated any bubbles in the metal.
* It homogenized the metal, spreading the elements (such as carbon) evenly throughout - increasing the effective strength by decreasing the number of potential weak points.
* It created layers, by continuously decarburizing the surface and bringing the surface into the blade's interior, which gives the swords their unique and beautiful grain. Despite widespread popular belief that the layered structure provides enhanced mechanical properties of the steel, this is completely false. Layers act as weld points which can only serve to weaken the integrity of the blade. (Bulat steel layering is an entirely different chemical effect, and does not apply to blades made in the Japanese fashion.)
* It burned off many impurities, again helping to overcome the Japanese steel's poor quality and purify/strengthen the sword.
Wikipedia, thanks to Sneaky Martith for helping me find this (see her quote)
This is all the information I have managed to locate thus far. Help the thread out:
- Bump!
- Donate some of your nice info.
- Direct others to this thread.
Quotes from people:
Takori PMed me after I first opened this thread...
Takori
Hey, was reading your post about Katanas...only got as far as you mentionning the Masamune because I just had to let you know. . . .a close friend of mine just bought a nice, battle-ready Masamune. When he had said it was long, I still wasn't expecting a 5'8" sword. But it's still something to see him swinging it around ^_^
Yeah, I know this was random...but I couldn't help myself.
Yeah, I know this was random...but I couldn't help myself.
And (after I asked if I could use her quote) she says...
Takori
Of course I don't mind ^_^ But it really is almost...funny in a way to see this 6'1" man wielding a sword that's as tall as I am from end to end.
And then she sent me pictures of the man (Drakon Seveya) with his sword.
Picture
Picture
Picture
Drakon Seveya sent me this PM and gives some nice info.
Drakon Seveya
Hey there just read your little splur about katana's and how you think they are two-handed swords, I hate to burst your bubble but they aren't, katana's are actually quite light to be perfectly honest, I'm speaking from experience as a trained swordsman and the katana being one my weapons of choice for most fights.
It is possible to weild a katana one-handed though quite difficult considering it's size and length, I won't argue with you there, but it's actually made to be one-handed. Now the Nodachi (Or known as Masamune to most) is made to be two-handed considering it's size, usually ranging from around 6 to 8 feet long, but once again it is possible weild one handed but quite difficult, again speaking from experience as I have just recently purchased one and it's 5'8 and I'm 6'1.
The Nodachi is quite heavy I won't argue and fairly difficult to weild one-handed as you would probably need to use momentum to swing it, none the less it is possible, so I though I would just impart that on to you, I'm not trying to be mean or rude but just speaking from someone how has trained with swords for a while and not just katana's and nodachi's either.
It is possible to weild a katana one-handed though quite difficult considering it's size and length, I won't argue with you there, but it's actually made to be one-handed. Now the Nodachi (Or known as Masamune to most) is made to be two-handed considering it's size, usually ranging from around 6 to 8 feet long, but once again it is possible weild one handed but quite difficult, again speaking from experience as I have just recently purchased one and it's 5'8 and I'm 6'1.
The Nodachi is quite heavy I won't argue and fairly difficult to weild one-handed as you would probably need to use momentum to swing it, none the less it is possible, so I though I would just impart that on to you, I'm not trying to be mean or rude but just speaking from someone how has trained with swords for a while and not just katana's and nodachi's either.
Sneaky Martith said this.
Sneaky Martith
Quote:
Traditional Japanese steel is popularly considered to be one of the best for creating swords, but the true reasons for this are artistic and not functional - contemporary western steels were and most modern steels are actually superior in strength and purity.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Katanas (at least) were they not supierior simply due to the method used to create them (the Folded steel gave them a 'cat claw' type effect where as the more you used it, the sharper it became)?
While it proved to be wrong, it did open my eyes to the folding process.
Since I've played several RPGs, and am on the topic of katana, I found something about Masamune, who is actually a Japanese Swordsmith, but the name Masamune is used in katana-like swords in Final Fantasy. You also might have heard of Muramasa (sometimes misspelled as Murasame), who was also a swordsmith, but has a two-handed sword in Ragnarok Online named after him, which is also katana-like. Here is a legend about the two (which has to be false, as they lived in complete different times) which says that while Masamune made holy swords, Muramasa made evil, blood-thirsty swords. This was enforced by the face that in Masamune's time, swords were more of an artform, as the Japanese weren't at war, but during Muramasa's time, swords were made more for battle.
Well, heres the legend:
Quote:
A legend tells of a test where Muramasa challenged his master, Masamune to see who could make a finer sword. They both worked and worked and eventually, when both swords were finished, they decided to test the results. The contest was for each to suspend the blades in a small creek with the cutting edge facing the current. Muramasa's sword cut everything that passed its way; fish, leaves floating down the river, the very air which blew on it. Highly impressed with his pupil's work, Masamune lowered his sword into the current and waited patiently. Not a leaf was cut, the fish swam right up to it, and the air hissed as it gently blew by the blade. After a while, Muramasa began to scoff at his master for his apparent lack of skill in his making of his sword. Smiling to himself, Masamune pulls up his sword, dries it, and sheathes it. All the while, Muramasa was heckling him for his sword's inability to cut anything. A monk, who had been watching the whole ordeal, walked over and bowed low to the two sword masters. He then began to explain what he had seen.
"The first of the swords was by all accounts a fine sword, however it is a blood thirsty, evil blade as it doesn't discriminate as to who or what it will cut. It may just as well be cutting down butterflies as severing heads. The second was by far the finer of the two, as it doesn't needlessly cut that which is innocent and undeserving."
In another account of the story, both blades cut the leaves that went down on the river's current equally well, but the leaves would stick to the blade of Muramasa whereas they would slip on past the Masamune after being sliced. Or alternatively both leaves were cut, but those cut by Masamune's blade would reform as it traveled down the stream.
"The first of the swords was by all accounts a fine sword, however it is a blood thirsty, evil blade as it doesn't discriminate as to who or what it will cut. It may just as well be cutting down butterflies as severing heads. The second was by far the finer of the two, as it doesn't needlessly cut that which is innocent and undeserving."
In another account of the story, both blades cut the leaves that went down on the river's current equally well, but the leaves would stick to the blade of Muramasa whereas they would slip on past the Masamune after being sliced. Or alternatively both leaves were cut, but those cut by Masamune's blade would reform as it traveled down the stream.
Wikipedia
Thanks for reading my thread. I hope it has given a new light on the katana to you.
All credit goes to the giver of the information they have given. Yeah.
