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Are you pro-Israel or pro-Palstine?

Israel 0.28956623681125 29.0% [ 247 ]
Palestine 0.15943728018757 15.9% [ 136 ]
neither 0.27549824150059 27.5% [ 235 ]
GOLD o_O 0.27549824150059 27.5% [ 235 ]
Total Votes:[ 853 ]
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Offline
Len me just say this before I state my opinions here: I'm not anti-semittic. I'm as pro-jewish as you can be without being one yourself. I keep the state of Israel and the Jews as a religious people very separated.

How you you feel in the Israel vs Palestine-conflict? I saw a ebate program last night, and I just started thinking about it. I really want to try to see the other side of the case, but haven't found anyone to discuss it with yet.

I'm pro-palestinian (as you might have understood by my opening in this thread), and proud to be. I think that the Palestine State should have been 'opened' in 1948 alongside the Israelic state. And I'm not saying it to be nazistic or anything of that sort. I honestly want your opinions.

Offline
I will also start by saying that I am not anti-Semitic and that I have a deep respect for the Jewish faith. It deeply annoys me that I have to say this before delving into the Israel/Palestine debate, but there you have it.

I believe that the creation of Israel was not much more than a method of alleviating Western Europe's sense of guilt after WWII. Anti-Semitism has existed in these places forever. Europe didn't want the Jews; the Jews didn't want to be in Europe. The solution? Give them a homeland a comfortable distance from Europe.

Instead of dealing with the problems of anti-Semitism at home, they funnelled them into a British mandate.

Which was already inhabited. Not that that mattered to anyone. They just shoved the Palestinians off to the side, where they now live in poverty while Israel thrives. And of course, any attempt to regain their homes is labeled a terrible act of aggression/terrorism against Israel. Never mind the fact they are up against the US army, dirt poor, and trying to defend their right to what was unjustly taken from them. And never mind that the Israelis, from what I remember, were the first to be the aggressors.

I'm going on what I got out of my high school history classes (I do not have the energy to do any extra research for the purposes of this forum, but I suppose I could later), but my basic understanding of the Israeli/Palestinian situation is that the creation of Israel is the poorest solution to anti-Semitism since the Final Solution. As such I have great difficulty accepting Israel as a legitimate nation, and I can't help but feel for the Palestinians who have been displaced. Being pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli will not change anything as the original status of the area is now destroyed beyond repair. We can only hope that SOME sort of agreement will be reached, although I don't see it.

(And please, for the love of god, don't flame me. I am very tired and bad with words when it comes to actually saying what I mean. If my facts are off, please by all means correct me. It's been a while.)

Offline
Raidh0
And of course, any attempt to regain their homes is labeled a terrible act of aggression/terrorism against Israel.


When you talk about suicide boming to kill citizens, i think terrorism is the right term, not "an attempt to regain your home". The motivation for terrorism is hate, and hate does not deserve sympathies.

People who are treated unjust do deserve our sympathies, but never without condemning actions of hate.

Offline
Tubal_Cain MMVI
Raidh0
And of course, any attempt to regain their homes is labeled a terrible act of aggression/terrorism against Israel.


When you talk about suicide boming to kill citizens, i think terrorism is the right term, not "an attempt to regain your home". The motivation for terrorism is hate, and hate does not deserve sympathies.

People who are treated unjust do deserve our sympathies, but never without condemning actions of hate.
*shrugs* The Isreaelis are just as hateful as the Palestinians, it's just that their hate has state-backing. Therefor, none of them deserve sympathy.

Which, ironically, is rather my stance.

I find it strange that Anti-semitism has come to mean hatred of jews, though, since the jews are only ONE of the semitic tribes, and hate of palestinians would also be anti-semitism, since a semite is a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia, including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs or their descendants.

Offline
I'm in an unusually spiteful mood today, so this will sound different from my usual stance...
The history of that area has always been blood-soaked.
For Millenia... Millenia(plural thousands of years)... people have been slaughtering each other there.
The bloodfueds between the tribes (if not faiths) of the area were old before Rome met the Etruscans.
If the people there haven't learned to live in harmony yet... then they won't.

If they won't live in peace, then let them perish in war.

Offline
I am a Jew and a staunch Zionist. The Palestinean state was created in 1948 under the UN Partition plan. However, when the surrounded Arab nations attacked Israel within hours of it's independence, the war resulted in the absorbtion of Palestine into other countries. The West Bank in particular went to Jordan. The Palestinean state that was created by the UN never got a chance to exist, and at this point I feel that the Palestineans don't deserve it. Quite frankly, any 'government' organization that encourages terrorist actions against another country is no government in my view. The PLO has encouraged suicide bombings against Israeli civilians.

Offline
Kiashana
I am a Jew and a staunch Zionist. The Palestinean state was created in 1948 under the UN Partition plan. However, when the surrounded Arab nations attacked Israel within hours of it's independence, the war resulted in the absorbtion of Palestine into other countries. The West Bank in particular went to Jordan. The Palestinean state that was created by the UN never got a chance to exist, and at this point I feel that the Palestineans don't deserve it. Quite frankly, any 'government' organization that encourages terrorist actions against another country is no government in my view. The PLO has encouraged suicide bombings against Israeli civilians.

I'm in love heart

Offline
I take it that you think running over people's houses with bulldozers and tanks are acts of love and peace.

Offline
I consider myself a staunch Zionist, and yet I find it odd that anyone can offer an unqualified endorsement to the Israeli government's military forays. I mean, you're ignoring decades of rulings from their supreme court spanking the Army for its misdeeds.

If you support everything the Army does in what it thinks is defence of Israeli interests and think the court should go ******** itself, you are every bit as bad as the Bush-worshippers here in the United States.

Don't call yourself a Zionist, Kishiana. You're a disgrace to me, and Zionists everywhere, and to the state of Israel.

Now: is there justification for entering a housing complex and slaughtering as many people you can get your hands on? Is there justification for entering a restaurant and shredding the people eating there? Is there justification for shelling residential neighborhoods that were not illegally placed? No, of course not. Okay, got that out of the way: terrorism is not acceptable.

Having said that, is there justification for stealing and destroying the olive groves of your neighbors? Is there justification for not only shooting a schoolgirl, but emptying a thirty-round magazine into her from close range? Is there justification for using two-thousand-pound gravity bombs to destroy corner apartments, when a rocket with a twenty-pound warhead (and pinpoint accuracy) would do just as well? Is there justification for punishing a community for the actions of one person, now deceased?

I think the answer to all of these questions is "Doubtful". Although I would like to hear your justifications. Now, please.

Offline
Raidh0
I will also start by saying that I am not anti-Semitic and that I have a deep respect for the Jewish faith. It deeply annoys me that I have to say this before delving into the Israel/Palestine debate, but there you have it.

I believe that the creation of Israel was not much more than a method of alleviating Western Europe's sense of guilt after WWII. Anti-Semitism has existed in these places forever. Europe didn't want the Jews; the Jews didn't want to be in Europe. The solution? Give them a homeland a comfortable distance from Europe.

Instead of dealing with the problems of anti-Semitism at home, they funnelled them into a British mandate.

Which was already inhabited. Not that that mattered to anyone. They just shoved the Palestinians off to the side, where they now live in poverty while Israel thrives. And of course, any attempt to regain their homes is labeled a terrible act of aggression/terrorism against Israel. Never mind the fact they are up against the US army, dirt poor, and trying to defend their right to what was unjustly taken from them. And never mind that the Israelis, from what I remember, were the first to be the aggressors.

I'm going on what I got out of my high school history classes (I do not have the energy to do any extra research for the purposes of this forum, but I suppose I could later), but my basic understanding of the Israeli/Palestinian situation is that the creation of Israel is the poorest solution to anti-Semitism since the Final Solution. As such I have great difficulty accepting Israel as a legitimate nation, and I can't help but feel for the Palestinians who have been displaced. Being pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli will not change anything as the original status of the area is now destroyed beyond repair. We can only hope that SOME sort of agreement will be reached, although I don't see it.

(And please, for the love of god, don't flame me. I am very tired and bad with words when it comes to actually saying what I mean. If my facts are off, please by all means correct me. It's been a while.)
DAMMIT! You stole what I was gonna say! Meany...

Literally. Almost word for word.

Offline
It's okay to commit acts of terror as long as you're backed up by a goverment the USA likes. Simple as that.

Nietzsche, you were one smart ********.

Offline
Shaviv
I consider myself a staunch Zionist, and yet I find it odd that anyone can offer an unqualified endorsement to the Israeli government's military forays. I mean, you're ignoring decades of rulings from their supreme court spanking the Army for its misdeeds.

If you support everything the Army does in what it thinks is defence of Israeli interests and think the court should go ******** itself, you are every bit as bad as the Bush-worshippers here in the United States.

Don't call yourself a Zionist, Kishiana. You're a disgrace to me, and Zionists everywhere, and to the state of Israel.

Now: is there justification for entering a housing complex and slaughtering as many people you can get your hands on? Is there justification for entering a restaurant and shredding the people eating there? Is there justification for shelling residential neighborhoods that were not illegally placed? No, of course not. Okay, got that out of the way: terrorism is not acceptable.

Having said that, is there justification for stealing and destroying the olive groves of your neighbors? Is there justification for not only shooting a schoolgirl, but emptying a thirty-round magazine into her from close range? Is there justification for using two-thousand-pound gravity bombs to destroy corner apartments, when a rocket with a twenty-pound warhead (and pinpoint accuracy) would do just as well? Is there justification for punishing a community for the actions of one person, now deceased?

I think the answer to all of these questions is "Doubtful". Although I would like to hear your justifications. Now, please.
Is there justification to taking someone's land just because you were treated badly by a group of people (the nazis) that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the people who's land you stole?

Offline
aguyuno
Is there justification to taking someone's land just because you were treated badly by a group of people (the nazis) that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the people who's land you stole?
The jews didn't take the land, ironically. The Allies gave it to them, royally ******** over the Palestinians who had also been promised a soverign state.

But then the Allies pretty much sucked at fulfilling their post-war promises at both wars.

Offline
The establishment of the state of Israel is not under debate. Yes, that in itself was problematic. (If there hadn't been open war between Jews and Arabs since the 1920s, it might have been less so.) However, the state now exists. Let's play the reality game. You can't simply wish heavily-armed states out of existence, and the other nuclear powers aren't going to be pushing buttons anytime soon.

As much as I detest Rumsfeld, he was more or less right - to paraphrase, "You go to the negotiating table with the situation you have, not the situation you want."

Offline
Axioma
aguyuno
Is there justification to taking someone's land just because you were treated badly by a group of people (the nazis) that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the people who's land you stole?
The jews didn't take the land, ironically. The Allies gave it to them, royally ******** over the Palestinians who had also been promised a soverign state.

But then the Allies pretty much sucked at fulfilling their post-war promises at both wars.
I know the allies gave it to them, I just worded it badly. As usual, the UN ******** up more than it helps.
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